Ok now that we have covered that I will say what I feel I need to say here.
Ignorance means a lack of knowledge and it can also be used to descibe people who refuse knowledge. A lack of knowledge and a lack of seeing other peoples views breeds prejudice. I have noticed a lot of arguing about religion and atheism. Religion is obviously important and is vital to teach morality, wisdom and spiritual awareness however if you don't want to practice a religion that is your discission and you should be respected for your discission. To judge people for their religion, ethnicities or sexual orientation is prejudice and ignorant. Ignorance is the reason why people eat animals, because they do not have enough knowledge to understand what they are doing is wrong or that they can do things differently. The happycow website is to offer vegetarians and vegans the opportunity to discuss all things vegan and vegetarian and to review restaurants, hopefully non-vegetarians will find this site and be educated on vegetarianism so they can adopt a more compassionate lifestyle. Ignorance is the biggest problem in the world and we can only defeat it by educating each other, learning from each other, respecting each others opinions and putting aside differences to work together to achieve the steps towards a more compassionate and peaceful world.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 02/13/17 21:15:14I also seek to overcome ignorance in all instances. Let us begin with the ignorance surrounding the pagan and Celtic religions you have brought to our attention.
If we are going to speak English, we should do it correctly:
Definition of pagan – Merriam Webster
1. heathen; a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2. one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
Definition of Celtic
1. : of, relating to, or characteristic of the Celts or their languages
Definition of celt
1. : a prehistoric stone or metal implement shaped like a chisel or ax head
The truth is that if you are going to present yourself as a pagan or a Celtic practitioner, there will be some backlash. It is a term used by Christians and Muslims to indicate a person to be executed in accordance with their laws.
Both pagan and Celts seem to lack any meaning in the dictionary, and yet their historic mark is found in all the great museums of the world. The idea of an ax is more significant than one may think at first glance. The ax is the most important tool for any village at the time. It would assist in building of homes, gathering of firewood, planting of crops, building of boats, making of fences and the making of weapons.
According to Hindu history, the Celts practiced a regional form of the Vedic religion that was pre-Hindu and that was practiced throughout the entire world during the time of the advent of Parashurama Avatar. Interestingly, Parashurama is always seen carrying an ax. The archeological evidence does not argue against this case. The Celts were throughout Europe and may have been the longest standing civilization in European history extending from Russia to Ireland and beyond.
The problem is that although some names can be found on stones, we really do not have a good historic record of what the Celtic religion was except for the Hindu description. The Vedic tradition was for the Raja or King, but in Europe it was for the Chieftain. Ceremonies were done largely to assure contracts would be upheld or the failed parties would face certain death. Ceremonies and sacrifices were made to gods and goddesses, festivals were held and people integrated this system into the planting calendar to assure better harvests. The circle was a universal symbol for Celts as it is to the Native Americans, Hindu, Buddhists, Chinese, and others. These were largely clan oriented matriarchies when it came to daily activities but final decisions were usually held by men in counsels for bigger issues and the Chieftain was the final arbiter only when necessary.
There is no way to practice the Celtic religion any longer because it is a lost tradition. The same is true of Roman and Greek paganism. To call one’s self a neo pagan or a neo Celt does not help much. The Celts were not vegan societies and they were brutal warriors. This age ended for a reason. The same is true of the pagan epoch where immorality, decadence, human and animal sacrifice and war reigned supreme in their non-vegan societies. To veganize these historic religions is like veganizing hieroglyphics; you can do it, but why?
Posted by Hellhound at 02/13/17 22:51:18I understand that the ancient Celts where brutal warriors but so where most cultures. Most cultures at some point in history did something terrible but that does not mean that those cultures our bad and have nothing to offer us. I know that paganism died hundreds of years ago but it is not all lost and in the recent past few years there has been a revival.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 02/14/17 01:10:48
I don't think you fully understand the depravity of the ancient pagan cultures. They regularly made animal and human sacrifices, owned slaves, held drunken orgies, operated the Colosseum, tortured, waged wars and supported a thriving prostitution sub-culture. They also were in many instances cannibals.
Yes, the Celtic religion is being revived largely by Anglos seeking some sort of historic cultural context. Christianity destroyed much of the Anglo European cultural historic roots. For example, the multilingual Celtic cultures were reduced in Europe to a handful of languages by the spreading Christian culture. In pre-Christian Europe there were thousands of languages, in some places, each valley had its own dialect. Christianity is not an indigenous religion of Europe nor of the Anglos. Christianity is a mid Eastern religion and culture that was imported to conquer the European region much as Islam is conquering Europe today.
The problem is that the chain to the past has been broken. It would almost be better to create a new religion rather than trying to reconstruct something that can not be explained correctly due to the end of that epoch. Instead, I think the Anglo community should look further to the past and investigate the Vedic culture which is the source of the Celtic culture. English, German, Russian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Lithuanian, Ukrainian and Italian among many other languages are all dialects of Sanskrit which is their originating grandmother language. Basque, Hungarian and Gaelic are not Sanskrit based languages. This shows the pervading presence of the once world Vedic empire.
The ancient Vedic empire has also disappeared. Its originating place was along the Saraswati river, and when this river dried up, the originating Vedic adherents migrated to the Ganges and began to integrate local beliefs into modern Hinduism. Truly it is for the best these ancient cultures ended; they were not peaceful and they were not vegan.
Today the Anglo European malaise can be solved not by a racial purity movement, but rather from a global harmony movement. This is why I endorse a new practice that fuses the most evolved and advanced philosophies on Earth under a vegan banner. These evolved philosophies are Buddhism, Hinduism and the Jain religion, each rooted in Sanskrit traditions that share a common root with Anglo culture.
Posted by Hellhound at 02/20/17 22:18:47I wish that I had never mentioned that I am pagan because you seem to be more focused on that than what I'm trying to say, which is that everyone should be respected for whatever religion or culture they have chosen as long as they live a compassionate lifestyle. I believe that there are many roads to enlightenment and everyone has a different spiritual path to follow. No spiritual paths are better than the other. I personally live in Ireland and I feel very connected to the Celtic past there, I pray to Celtic gods and visit ancient pagan sacred sights. I am aware of the horrors that have happened though history by the Celtic peoples but I do not believe that those horrors that happened were a result of paganism, I believe it was the result of bad people doing bad stuff. People part of other religions have done horrible things but that does not mean that the religion they where following has no value.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 02/21/17 09:51:56
'Tis your sidhe cup lassie.
The only reason I had discussed the history of your Celtic and Pagan religion is because this is a wisdom topic of the HappyCow forum, and you are addressing the failure of ignorance. There is nothing more ignorant than complete denial. After all, at the root of 'ignorant' is the term 'ignore.'
You claim to want everyone to have an open permissive value system and accept all religious values. I for one am not that ignorant. Many religions commit atrocities. You may be right that individuals perpetrated these gruesome acts, but when they become institutional and cultural norms, we may judge those religions as seriously flawed and needing reformation and revision or perhaps termination.
The Celtic and Pagan cultures have had quite a large influence on European culture. For you to want to dismiss the truth about these far reaching beliefs and skip to the idea of peace and love almost makes you as palatable as a medieval Christian Church that hopes no one hears the torture chamber during communion.
Pagans of Babylon were renowned for sacrificing infants in a horrible way, burning them in the red hot arms of their god's statues' which were heated over a fire.
Pagans of ancient Greece made it legal for free men to rape slaves and non virgin unwed people. It was so common for people to be attacked on the roads from men leaping from the bushes that the myth of pan evolved to explain it.
Pagans of Greece and Rome frequently pillarized slaves and captured enemies from battle. They would tie these people to a pillar and torture them to death.
Pagans of Greece and Rome developed the idea of a Christos. They would anoint an individual with oils in their temple, or perhaps use urine for a pillarizing victim, and then offer them to the gods and make them a human sacrifice. They then would fill cups up with human blood and drink it calling it the pathway to the heavens. There were Hermes Christos, Zeus Christos, Mars Christos etc. Thousands died this way.
Pagans cooked alive, fed to the lions, crucified, stoned, buried alive, skinned and publicly made sport of Christians to execute them.
Pagans made hundreds of animal sacrifices at the Olympics.
Pagans castrated male slaves.
Celts waged gruesome and bloody wars with axes, spears and knives, rarely taking prisoners.
In spite of what you have written, some pathways are much better than others. In India, 65% of the population is vegetarian due to the influence of Vaishnavism, Buddhism, Jain Dharma, Sai Baba worship and the Sikh religion. Confucianism, Taoism and Mahayana Buddhism has helped to make Taiwan a vegetarian Mecca. These are the civilized religions of the world. They are better than the Abrahamic religions in terms of causing far less harm on this planet. These philosophies and religions are far more intellectual, spiritual, effective, truthful and genuine than Paganism and the Celtic religions. These civilized religions are far greater than atheism which imprisons, tortures and executes Theists daily.
Why is it that the most harmful of religions and philosophies, in terms of body count, animal torture, human rights abuses and intolerance always seek to demand respect for all religions?
Islam animal sacrifices 1 million animals a year at the Haj.
Catholicism led the inquisition and the genocide of North and South American Native peoples, Aborigines of Australia, Black Africans and Asians.
Jews have institutionalized animal sacrifice in spite of Genesis 1:29, waged genocidal wars and practice the most cruel form of animal slaughter calling it Kosher.
Pagans roll in a pool of blood as do Celts.
Tribal religions are famous for animal and human sacrifice and in many instances cannibalism.
In fact the term 'Cannibalism' comes from a pagan etymology. it is originally referential to those in "Canaan," the middle East, who worshiped "Baal." These pagans ate human flesh as did so many other Pagans. This is how the Minotaur myths of pagan Crete were made, to explain the cannibalism of the pagan priests and those that joined them.
Please stop trying to convince others that all religions are the same. When one looks at the benefit and harm ratio of all religions, it is very obvious which ones are the most ecological, vegetarian, humanistic, compassionate and good. It is also clear that satanism, atheism, paganism, Celtic traditions, tribal religions, the Abrahamic religions and Zoroastrianism are among the greatest offenders of animal and human rights.
If you truly think that ignorance fails, practice Mahayana Buddhism, Vaishnavism, Hindu Sikhism, Jain Dharma, Taoism, Confucianism or Sai Baba worship, but do not think for a moment that paganism and Celtic traditions will meet the mark.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 02/21/17 20:48:44Actually, I have not called you a name. Name calling is very debasing. You have called me a brick wall. You have not debased me but yourself. I have offered much important information about your chosen religion and you have been insulting. Your behavior is a wonderful example of ignorance in action.
I know you consider the truth insulting. I do not buy your revival concept for the pagan/Celtic culture. I live in California where these things were revived 20 years ago. It did not work. It failed because Anglos do not want to go backwards into an unknown historic context that is reconstructed by the Masonic League and money making, crystal holding idiots holding seminars. Now only the most backward places that also have large Klu Klux Klan memberships in small towns like McKinleyville in Humbodlt County near the Oregon border still sustain a crystal meth Celtic pagan white racist culture of uneducated ruffians who have no idea what they are doing.
I assure you that the only waste of time is your false proclamations for co-mutual respect. If you think insulting people by calling them names like 'brick wall' convinces me or anyone else that you truly seek to respect others, think again. You also seem to want to promote peace, but how does calling me a name fit into this? Your Celtic pagan practice is just as I thought, totalitarian. There is no room for descent nor criticism nor true historic reflection. You exhibit the exact same intolerance as historic Celtics and pagans who would torture and kill anyone opposing them.
And just in case you think that historically the pagans did not do such things, let me describe a couple more of the torture devices invented and used by pagans in European history.
The Roman pagans invented the Judas chair which they used in the Colosseum in Lyon France extensively. It is a chair with a barbed. spiked sharp cone on the seat that Christians were forced to sit on, splitting their rectums, stabbing their colons and piercing their lower intestines causeing them to bleed to death. This was for the pagans entertainment.
Pagans also had a huge bronze bull that was hollow on the inside with a door at the underside belly of the statue. People were placed inside this large statue and then a huge bonfire was lit beneath it, slowly cooking the victim. The crowds laughed because there were small holes in the snout of the bull where the screams of the burning victim could be heard. The crowds laughed hysterically because the bronze bull sounded like it was mooing.
These pagan pastimes reflect the very same nasty judgemental emotional demeanor you displayed when you called me the name "Brick wall" and decided that I am a waste of time.
Because California borders India and Taiwan I feel fortunate to have learned civilized religions and philosophies that have for centuries and millenniums taught vegetarianism, no harm, correct thought, correct speech and true peace; the very things you claim to promote but do not practice. These religions and philosophies from the far East do practice and have practiced peace contiguously unlike the pagan Celtic method of deception.
Posted by herwin at 05/10/17 16:40:07very interesting and fair discussion. The OP expted back patters instead did get a dose of facts that he could not properly deal with.
From the comfy of our home it looks so golly darn interesting pagan religions, but as pointed out, no, they could be brutal, and like any religion, a blind excuse for extreme injustice opresion and torture.
By defenition religion and reason, logic, are eachothers oposite. Religion is something that you blindly have to believe, reason, logic, are bright shining lights that leads us.
I always feel a bit the same when people have a similar idea of the Noble Indians, i mean Native Americans. Completely ignoring that native indians were just human like you and me, and just like us and our culture were capable of torture opresion and brutally killing animals.
As Star points out, it seems the only religion(s) that truly promote a degree of compassion, come from Asia.
Even our great Greek philosophers have never uttered a word about compassion for animals, nor Da Vince, they wrote the most clever words on paper and couldnt get enough of it, they wrote books and books. We vegans are so desperate that we even invent fake quotes to show these ancient people cared about animals.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 05/11/17 15:21:30herwin-
I mostly agree with you entirely.
I do however have an important caveat:
We can not state fairly that all religion is wrong when we have only seen false religions arise throughout the history of this planet. Paganism is a non vegan totalitarian ideological religion of brutality, not so different from the non vegan Abrahamic and tribal religions.
There has always been one genuine, good and reasonable vegan/herbivore religion which is the singular true and only religion for life. Unfortunately, mankind has consistently fallen beneath this mark and has practiced false non vegan representations of this true vegan practice of peace.
The Asian religions came closest with their ova-lactarian and lactarian religions which can be adapted into a vegan context, but still they are not the one true vegan religion of compassion, peace, wisdom, truth and love. The Asian religions are marred with wars rooted in racial, linguistic and regional divisions as well as hierarchy and other control mechanisms.
This vegan religion is the ever unfolding wisdom and truth for life found in every universe and found within every being. We all must uncover its enlightenment and bring forth its practice.
Do not be afraid of the word 'religion,' it is replaceable. It is a word that easily describes a practice, dedication to correct behavior patterns and cultural affiliation.
Posted by Hellhound at 05/12/17 15:24:03Herwin - I did not get a dose of facts I couldn't deal with. I simply didn't want to carry on with a discussion with someone who kept repeating themselves, would not listen to what I had to say and kept insulting my spirituality. I am not in denial that most pagan cultures in ancient times did horrible unspeakable things but so did a lot of other religions. Just because brutal people where part of those religions hundreds of years ago does not mean that those religions have no value. Whether someone is Pagan, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or any other religion ( or none religion) I respect them for their beliefs as long as they practice those beliefs in a compassionate way. I do not like it when people use their beliefs to look down on other people for their beliefs as that kind of thinking is dangerous. Being falsely righteous and looking down on others is the kind of thinking that was going though the minds of the pagans that that did those horrible brutal things to Christians, the Christians who burnt people at the stake for witchcraft and the Islamic extremist terrorist who caused 9 11. When you misuse your religion to look down on others for their beliefs you are not only insulting them but you are insulting yourself.
Looking down on others is why people eat animals, because they think they are better than animals and therefore they think they have the right to eat them.
So please don't look down on me because I'm Pagan and I practice witchcraft. I have not used my spirituality as an excuse to harm others. I try to respect everyone. Yes I'm not perfect but none of us are and that has nothing to do with what spiritual path we follow.
Posted by herwin at 05/13/17 09:12:31@Star, i almost was nodding away in a pleasant agreement whith you when i was suddenly rudely awakened by at the end of your post.
The vegan religion.
Veganism, in case you missed ir, is a lifestyle, not a religion. It is far away from a religion. to call veganism a religion is a slap in the face of veganism. Religion, by defenition, is a 'believe'. the core of religion and a believe is, a 'believe'. It is the oposite, and the enemy of 'reason', 'logic', and philosophy.
We, i, as a vegan, don't blindly believe it is not good to eat animals, no, we vegans rrason with arguments and logic why animals and people are the same and that on that ground if wr are against cruelty to people we also should not contribute to animal cruelty.
That, is not a religion, far from it. In fact, Veganism is 'just'a practical lifestyle, just bc i dont want to hurt animals, doesnt make me a half saint or a member of a boyscout religion.
It is in fact, this attitude that veganism is a Holy Religion, that many ordinary people are putt off to even think about eating vegan. Its the reason why ordinary folks sometimes call us 'selfrighteous, which in turn turns some vegans into screaming 'the meateaters discriminate us!' victims.
@ Hellhound. Cool name, no need to explain your name lol.
so you do witchcraft? i got nooooo idea what that means. For me, to honour the Earth i dont need that [censored], i just look at the birds and the trees, ride my bicycle, etc
Your point is, just bc of a few rotten apples, doesnt mean all is bad. My, and Stars point is, it sucks at the core, not just some bad individuals who abuse a religion.
In the end Religion, whatever religion, is no more and in many casrs certainly no less, than the fairytales of old. Fairytales are to fool children, and religion to fool adults.
Long live philosophy bc by defenition they work with logic arguments and reasoning which in some cases might lead to a mild form of enlightment.
Posted by Hellhound at 05/13/17 10:57:53Herwin - I personally disagree that religion is just fairytales, I do believe in gods, the divine and other unseen forces however I would say that a lot of religions have been corrupted, abused by people and something's have been lost in translation. There are also a lot of false religious teachings such as woman are inferior and homosexuality is a sin. These are from the arrogant judgmental people who abuse religion.
I believe that both science and spirituality, faith and fact are not opposites but are both tools to achieve truth.
A few months ago a happycow member named ahimsa32fa was posting topics about how religion was the problem Star then argued with her that atheism was the problem and I tried to tell both Star and ahimsa that peoples beliefs should be respected. When Star got bored with arguing with ahimsa she then started insulting my religion paganism. That is when I made this topic 'ignorances failure' and I made it to say that peoples beliefs should be respected.
Star does not share your opinion that all religion is [censored], instead she believes that everything is [censored] except whatever religion she follows. This is an arrogant and judgmental way of seeing things as there are many ways to enlightenment.
Whatever your religion, philosophy or belief compassion and respect should be at the center not false self righteousness and judgment.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 05/13/17 21:55:11
I am not implying that 'Vegan' is a religion. In the US or UK, I don't remember which, the government quickly put an end to that idea in the courts. I agree with you that being vegan is a dietary and lifestyle choice and not a religion.
What I am saying is this:
To be vegan is not enough. There can be morally corrupt vegans and so a spiritual practice is necessary to provide impetus for altruism, charity, virtue, morality, peace and love. Vegans also need to establish their purified cosmology in this impure world to help promote the Vegan experience. Everyone wants to know how we, as vegans, view the multiverse and how we define humanity in this equation. Religion in a carnivorous context is certainly corrupted as you well pointed out in the Forum Topic, 'Sacrifice.' Vegan Religion is not.
What I stated is that I am excluding and exempting a truthful Vegan Religion from such standard corruptions indicated by carnivorous, lactarian and ova-lactarian religions. The animal products consumed by those cultures does the actual corrupting, filling one's mind with hunter predator instincts which also is referred to in the topic, 'Sacrifice.'
It is my understanding, from having practiced Vegan Religion for fifteen years plus, that there is an incorruptible spiritual path which is the true source of all religions. This sourcing of the world's religions is much like the moon as the source of the reflection of the moon in the water. Vegan Religion is more foundational and thus is as the basic thread from which the religion cloth is woven. Vegan Religion has been ignored but it has continued since the beginning of time as the true intention of life.
One should not speak for others. I suggest you ask questions to gain answers from the source.
I do agree with your fundamental humanism. I too do not like conflict, but I also view conflict as, at times, a necessary method for arriving at truth. Truth is more important and basic than peacefulness or we end up with a false peace, a 'Pax Romanum,' which European pagans seem to readily settle for as some are worshipers of Cesar.
I also agree that there are false religions. I include paganism in that list. The root of that falsity is the instinctual impact of a carnivorous diet as practiced by those societies. I have clearly shown above how such pagan societies not only ate meat, but hunted, tortured and executed animals for entertainment in places like the Colosseum and then extended such practices towards humans.
As far as gender equality is concerned, I think you like other politically and socially conditioned people are barking up the wrong tree. The genders are not equal and do not need to be equal. They are different. Society should respect worker rights as worker rights and not engender such rights. For example, if women get pregnancy leave, then all workers should have available such leave time and we should omit the word pregnancy from the equation. This would be fair and just.
As far as homophobia is concerned, that is a mental illness and we should not be ruled from the viewpoint of the insane.
Also, you cannot either speak for my religion nor judge it because you obliviously know nothing of it. You might learn it one day, though.
Posted by Hellhound at 05/14/17 19:41:23Star - I never said I was Roman, I said I was Celtic pagan. The Celts where at war with ancient Rome. I practice Celtic shamanism, Druidism etc.
I did not say anything about workers rights I just said that women are not inferior to men and if you disagree with that you are a sexist.
I do not need to change my religion to yours because I am quite happy with the religion that I am following now, however I would be interested in googling your religion and learning some of it's wisdom but I can't because you have never mentioned what your religion is called.
And concerning speaking for other people, you can't tell me what to do, this is a forum discussion where you can say whatever you want as long as it is not a swear word.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 05/14/17 21:05:18
I think that Hellhound's final comment is a tell all. She claims her name is about gaming but everyone truly wants to know if she is demonic. Rather than discourse, she lowers herself to the abysmal pig trough of name calling. Is this what the pagan religion does to people?
I do not care what names she calls me, but the fact that she chooses abusive pathways to attack another whom does not agree with her is the hallmark of paganism. During the Greek and Roman pagan epochs which she has told us she is aligned, all non participants, including Christians, were name called, subjected to black magic, beaten, tortured and executed in gruesome ways.
Hellhound tries to make us believe that she is somehow practicing a more evolved, modern form of paganism. She even stands in front of the feminist banner as though she owns it to prove her humanism. She claims to support pacifism as she halts all civil debate. But in the final result, she lowers herself to name calling.
Shame on Hellhound, shame on you for behaving as your name suggests, a female dog from an unfriendly place. Shame on you for acting falsely as a peace maker. Shame on you for promoting a totalitarian, autocratic, tyrannical sociology wrapped up in an animal and human sacrificing cannibalistic tradition known as paganism. Shame on you!
Posted by Hellhound at 05/14/17 22:05:45Star - First of all I have all ready said I am not Roman pagan I am Celt. Secondary the word troll is to describe someone who serfs the web and finds forums where they can start pointless arguments to offend people for the sadistic fun of it. Your idiotic accusations prove you are a web troll.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 05/15/17 21:38:43Hell-
First you call me a troll, now one who makes idiotic accusations. Is this what paganism has done to you? Originally you broke up a civil debate between myself and Ahimsa32fa because you claimed pacifistic grounds. Now you continue with your name calling.
I have explained to you that the Celtic tradition is a lost tradition. What you claim you are is like claiming to practice a religion from Atlantis. It may be a nice idea for yourself, but there simply is not enough historic data to formulate a reconstruction of Celtic religious practices.
As I have explained, the Celts were just as brutal as all pagan societies. The Scottish Celts were brutal warriors. To enter their tribal encampments one would have to walk past many heads on high wooden stakes. Celts were largely agrarian people who were not known to be vegan and when they warred they took no or few prisoners. The ones that were taken were made into slaves or simply tortured to death for entertainment and as sacrifices to gods.
Pagan culture is part of a lineage that extends to the modern day. The Celts were subsumed by the Roman Empire which did invade the British Isles where you live as did the Vikings. The Roman Empire was, as pointed out, a resurrection of Spartan culture and in the British Isles it co opted the indigenous beliefs when it conquered the Druid and Celtic cultures.
When the Roman Empire fell to the brief invasion of the Mongolian Empire, it was devastated. The remains of the Roman Empire then converted to the Eastern Roman Empire's religion of Christianity as did the Vikings, leaving us with a Christianized Europe.
This Catholic Europe is often called the Holy Roman Empire because it was a continuation of the previous Roman Empire. This is obviated by the Eucharistic, the torture chambers, and the public executions and burnings at the stake which was the new brand of 'bread and circus.' Any modern view of the Celtic religion is only viewed through the historic lenses of this historic progression because the chain of history is broken and the past was eradicated by Holy Roman Empire's desire to rid the European world of its heritage.
The most obvious symbols of the Roman Empire were the salute to Hail Caesar and the Roman Fasces. Both of these symbols rose in Hitler's Germany which used the Hail Caesar salute as Heil Hitler and the Roman Fasces not only in emblems but to form the word Fascism. Indeed Hitler sought to reignite the ancient Roman Empire with his own brand of Nazi paganism.
So you see Hellhound, you are part of a lineage that is interconnected with many Hellbound cultural practices, none of which are vegan and all of which made animal and human sacrifices. To call yourself Celtic pagan, Greek pagan, Roman pagan, the inquisition or Nazi is only splitting hairs. You have chosen the wrong side of history and to claim humanism and pacifism for your religious heritage is laughable.
Posted by Hellhound at 05/15/17 22:05:52Star - First of all look up the meaning of of the words web troll. Secondly look up actual modern pagan and shamanistic spiritual websites and you will find that there are many people who follow the religion I follow therefore it is not a dead religion. Thirdly stop taking your prejudice and hatred out on me just because I follow a different religion. I have not done anything wrong.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 05/16/17 03:43:06Hell-
First of all you have done something wrong. You have called me a troll when it was you who trolled a debate I was having and stopped it.
Secondly, you have called me one who makes idiotic accusations and now you call me hateful.
Thirdly, I explained that the link to the true past of the Celtic traditions is unknown and what you are conducting may make you happy, but it is not a true Celtic tradition. This is not hateful, it is true.
Fourthly, I have no prejudice in such matters other than a disdain for non vegan cultural practices and their non vegan heritages.
As I previously explained, the only known history explaining the religion of the Celtic people is found in the Vedic literature. The entire known world was practicing the Vedic religion at the time when renegade warrior clans began unethical practices. Parashurama Avatar warred against these clans, killing many and driving the rest off and banishing them from India. These wrong practicing clans began the Celtic religion.
The Greek pagan religion, which we do have an historic record for, was not born from thin air. It came from Celtic roots. The Celts, like the Vedic culture was vast in its reach.
What you claim to be practicing may use a few old words from the Celtic traditions, but it is not the authentic ancient religion. With the traditional culture and traditional system of commerce for the Celtic culture gone, what you are doing is strange at best. This is not a hateful commentary but a truthful one.
The same can be said of the traditional American Indian cultural practices that are reconstructed in a modern era. I have seen Pow Wows where Native People dance for money in the parking lot of Indian Casinos with close caption TV feeds at the bar of the casinos with numbers on the Indians for betting purposes.
The same can be said about Tibetan Buddhism. There is no longer a Tibet. It does not exist any more. In the Diamond Sutra the Buddha said there is no Buddha and there is no Buddhism. Who knows what they are doing when they charge people in LA money to buy the process for initiation to have a rainbow body.
I have read your introductory remarks. I have not shown any troll hatred nor have I made any idiotic accusations as I disagree politely with your sham religion. I think it is good if you are vegetarian, and I think it is good to honor the Earth. I do not think it is necessary to align yourself with the name of a fallen ancient culture to do so. Undoubtedly the Celts are not your true genetic ancestors, Ireland is full of Roman and Viking blood. The Roman historians of the time claimed that the Celts of that region were short brown people, possibly Eskimos, but we still do not know who they were.
I suggest you find a good Vegan Religion to do what you like best.
That is my polite opinion.
I do not like the term pagan, because it is rightfully associated with horrible debauchery, violence and cruelty.
I do not like the term Celtic because it is not what those people called themselves but rather refers to axes and hatchets as I clarified previously from the dictionary in previous discussions. We do not even know their correct names of these diverse tribes, bands and clans.
So why do you name call?
Is this what your religion teaches you or did I hit a raw nerve simply responding appropriately to your post?
Posted by Hellhound at 05/16/17 07:40:34Star - now you pretend to be the victim, you claim I name call you when all I have said is that I think you are a troll. You claim that you are only giving your polite opinion when that is obviously not the case. I quote Star the magic vegan - " Tis your sidhe cup lassie." ( This is obviously Star being prejudice again by mocking my nationality), " She claims her name is about gaming but everyone truly wants to know if she is demonic.", " shame on you for behaving as your name suggests, a female dog from an unfriendly place." ( This is a reference to an insulting name ), "Shame on you for promoting a totalitarian, autocratic, tyrannical sociology wrapped up in an animal and human sacrificing cannibalistic tradition" ( Is this not an idiotic accusation or are you saying I engage in these illegal and immoral crimes ?) - these are the insults she has given me, but then there are loads of insults directed at my religion. I quote - "Denial and lack of truth seems to be endemic to Pagan culture." (Star posted just this after I said a poignant comment about the importance of respect and the dangers of self righteousness), "the hallmark of paganism." "your sham religion." - I unfortunately can't give anymore examples as I do not have enough time to write them all down but do these sound like polite things to say? Do these not sound prejudice? No they don't!
Your arguments are also not backed up by fact for example you say ' Undoubtedly the Celts are not your true genetic ancestors, Ireland is full of Roman and Viking blood. ' It is a well known fact that the Romans never settled in Ireland. Another historical fact you get wrong is you say 'The problem is that although some names can be found on stones, we really do not have a good historic record of what the Celtic religion was except for the Hindu description. ' If you where actually educated on the history of the ancient Celts you would also know that when the Christian monks, nuns and saints came over to Ireland in the 400s/500s AD they kept records, these records might not be 100% reliable but they are reliable enough for experts to get enough information to write many books on the subject. My point being that if you know nothing about the ancient culture that practiced paganism then how can you know anything about the civilized and modern version we call neopaganism or similar beliefs such as revived Celtic shamanism?
My religion paganism is also not relevant to this forum as I created this forum to discuss the importance of compassion and respect and the fact that ignorance, self righteousness and prejudice are the problems in the world. You obviously do not agree with this truth as you ignored everything I was trying to say in my topic and continuously insulted me and my spirituality with your prejudice. Star, if you are not a troll then why? Why do you act like this? Why do you continue to insult people for their beliefs? What good could ever come from offending people and spreading hatred and prejudice? Why do you value your own self righteousness above respect and why do you show more hatred than compassion? I hope that one day you will stop being pro conflict and start being pro peace.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 05/16/17 22:34:44
I never play the victim, perhaps this role you have cast me in is but another insult amid your torrent of insults. I have written that I do not care what names you call me. I do feel, however, that it is improper for you to call me any names at all.
1." Tis your sidhe cup lassie." ( This is obviously Star being prejudice again by mocking my nationality), "
This is not an insult but a fact. As far as your nationality is concerned, you should be happy that one might care enough of your native culture to remark in a local colloquial vernacular. Your response seems a bit overt. Are you the only Irish person at this table? Do you know my nationality? I think my response to you concerning this must be, "'Tis, 'tis, 'tis."
2. " She claims her name is about gaming but everyone truly wants to know if she is demonic.",
I think this is a fair assumption considering your chosen Avatar moniker of 'Hellhound.' Also, you claim to be pagan which I believe I have explained above has a very shady past. This too makes such an earnest consideration genuine in nature.
3. " shame on you for behaving as your name suggests, a female dog from an unfriendly place."
Your name is Hellhound and you have written that you are female. Hounds are dogs and Hell is an unpleasant place. You did call me a troll and so this to me makes you live up to your name.
4. "Shame on you for promoting a totalitarian, autocratic, tyrannical sociology wrapped up in an animal and human sacrificing cannibalistic tradition"
I have explained how the pagans and the preceding Celtic cultures do practice this abusive behavior. It is indeed shameful it is your chosen culture especially since it is not a vegetarian Religion let alone Vegan Religion. I never used the term illegal, I simply brought summation to what I had written about the history of pagans and Celts.
5. "Denial and lack of truth seems to be endemic to Pagan culture."
This was written after you wrote in an obvious state of denial to everything I had written and after I had rendered a succinct synopsis of pagan culture in Europe. It is indeed fitting considering your response to my statements.
6. "the hallmark of paganism." "your sham religion."
There is nothing wrong with the phrase, "the hallmark of paganism."
The idea of your religion being a sham is only highlighted by your admission that it is a reconstructed culture and religion ushered in by, as you wrote, " ...the Christian monks, nuns and saints came over to Ireland in the 400s/500s AD they kept records, these records might not be 100% reliable but they are reliable enough for experts to get enough information to write many books on the subject." If the Celtic culture must rely on Catholic clergy to define itself, then it is not authentic. Not being authentic is to be a sham. I do not mind, there are many shams occurring in the world today. in fact, being a sham religion is perhaps the most endearing and interesting thing about it.
7. "Undoubtedly the Celts are not your true genetic ancestors, Ireland is full of Roman and Viking blood. ' It is a well known fact that the Romans never settled in Ireland."
Yes, but the Vikings did. The Romans were in England. Northern Ireland is ruled by England and there is much intermarriage between the two cultures. Ipso facto, there is Roman blood in the genetic pool of Ireland.
8. "My point being that if you know nothing about the ancient culture that practiced paganism then how can you know anything about the civilized and modern version we call neopaganism or similar beliefs such as revived Celtic shamanism?"
I know something on this topic. I know about the Gaelic language that is claimed to be the ancestral language of the Viking descendants who have some Roman blood in their gene pool. I know about the Celtic tradition, the pagan tradition, the Celtic pagan tradition, Ireland, neo-paganism and Celtic shamanism.
In fact, the original Celts, as I wrote, were seen by the Romans who wrote minimally of them. It is said that the last Druid met the first Roman. They are written of as a short brown people. I think they may have been a mixture of Tamil blood, Eskimo blood, American Native blood, African blood and possibly Egyptian blood. This is a guess because nothing is known of them other than reconstructed ruins that show cultural bias in their architectural reconstruction.
9. "I created this forum to discuss the importance of compassion and respect and the fact that ignorance, self righteousness and prejudice are the problems in the world."
Ha ha ha ha ha ha. After the avalanche of insults you have hurled at me? Ha ha ha ha. I love humor, it is so very revealing.
10. "Star, if you are not a troll then why? Why do you act like this? Why do you continue to insult people for their beliefs?"
I have not insulted you for your beliefs nor any person for their beliefs. I do reveal the truth about beliefs. I had not insulted you at all, but I now see how I may have come close to it, only after you initiated the insults by calling me a troll. I have insulted the pagan tradition for its cruelty, the Celtic tradition for its cruelty and both for their non vegan practices.
The only true religion is Vegan Religion. It is the only true spiritual practice. All non vegan religions and spiritual practices are shams. Please apply this point to #6.
11. "What good could ever come from offending people and spreading hatred and prejudice?"
I do not spread hatred, only truth. Hatred and prejudice has been spread by the pagans, the Celts and the Catholic church as mentioned above.
12. "Why do you value your own self righteousness above respect and why do you show more hatred than compassion?"
I am not self righteous. I am simply correct. To tell the truth and be correct is a humbling experience I assure you. Your response to truth seems awkward. Is there a reason for this?
13. "I hope that one day you will stop being pro conflict and start being pro peace"
I have already told you that I am not pro conflict. I have told you that conflict sometimes is the way truth arrives. Did you read anything that I have written?
I think and feel more than ever that Vegan Religion is the only true religion after seeing how the Celtic pagan Catholic tradition still demands complete obedience and can not handle dissent. I do not practice a tradition like yours of such descending authority and absolutism. I prefer my Vegan Religion which depends on open creativity, subjectivity, and personal responsibility.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 05/16/17 23:03:23Oh, and by the way.
Although it is still debated as to if the Romans indeed did conquer Hibernia, the Latin name for Ireland, or not, the fact remains that the Romans did map the island, visited there, traded with the people and enjoyed its beauty. Julius Caesar wrote of its beauty and how he enjoyed spending time there. Ireland need not be conquered to raise babies.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 05/17/17 02:59:28
And also, before I abandon this discussion...
The Greek pagans also visited Ireland before the Romans.
The Celts were an Iron Age civilization. Their race probably formed during the Stone Age. During the Stone Age there were ice ages and partial ice land bridges are currently being theorized between North America and Europe due to the similarity of stone carving and the rocks used in stone carving found at midden sites.
English, German, Spanish, French, Italian, Russian, German, Dutch etc. are languages derived from Sanskrit as the root language. Gaelic is not a Sanskrit based language as is neither Basque nor Hungarian. Gaelic certainly is not a Viking dialect. A comparison to Tamil might prove to bear interesting results.
I am truly sorry if I hurt Hellhound's feelings.
I do feel that even a carnivorous religion is better than no religion and I applaud Hellhound for being a strong woman and being proud of her heritage..
Posted by Hellhound at 05/17/17 15:44:24There is no such thing as a carnivorous religion or a vegan religion. Vegetarianism is a lifestyle that limits the cruelty and abuse towards animals. Veganism is better than vegetarianism as it completely cuts out all animal products from our life therefore eliminating animal mistreatment but veganism can be harder than vegetarianism. I would like it if one day everyone becomes vegan or vegetarian as this would be a great evolutionary step toward a much more evolved and compassionate world.
Veganism should not be attached to a certain religion or detached from all religions. Veganism and vegetarianism are global and non-denomimational movements. There are many vegan and vegetarian Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans and in other religions that I may have forgot to mention, there are also many atheist and agnostic vegans and vegetarians. It does not mater what religion you follow or if you have a religion, as long as you are a good person and you value compassion and respect as your top priorities. To attach prejudice to veganism will give people the wrong idea. Prejudice is not what veganism is about compassion is, this should be applied to spirituality as well.
Posted by Star the magic vegan at 05/18/17 01:51:57Hell-
In your case, ignorance did not fail as your topic suggests:
"There is no such thing as a carnivorous religion or a vegan religion. "
Islam animal sacrifices one million animals each year at the Haj, many of which are baby camels. They eat all this meat ceremoniously.
Ancient Greek and Roman pagans made human and animal sacrifices, the meat was not wasted.
The ancient Jews made throw offerings, burnt offerings and blood sacrifices of animals as written in the Torah and the Bible.
Catholics pray to Mother Mary who made animal sacrifices after Jesus' birth as is the traditional Jewish rite. Catholics also have culturally eaten fish on Friday.
There is the Christmas and Easter family dinner celebrated by all Christians in general usually involving meats.
There are false Hindu, Voodoo and tribal religions that sacrifice animals.
And the list goes on and on and on.
To simply receive Eucharist or to meditate in silk or wool is a non vegan act. Even praying on a wool prayer rug or at a leather pew is not vegan.
The real problem here is that Hellhound has no idea what she is stating.
She obviously has never practiced a vegan religion.
I invite anyone interested in this topic to respond to the Forum Post titled Vegan Religion.
I am now done with Hellhound and her Failure of Ignorance.