"Belief" vs. Free Thinking

Question

"Belief" and "faith" in supernatural beings is not very compatible with free thinking.  Religion teaches us not to think but to just have "faith".
Just like politicians and hustlers. Religion makes us obedient puppets to those in power (corporations or churches).

I'm anti-war, anti-racism, anti-sexism, and anti-speciesism.  All this without a "god"!

Donny Lutz
Author

baban78 · Answer

I agree with you 100 percent. You are awesome! Not many people think like us unfortunately.

ahimsa32fa · Answer

Reportedly, an increasing number of folks claim no religious affiliation and/or are openly atheist.
The numbers are logically deflated as most atheist are forced to stay "in the closet" for fear of recrimination by the believers.  Much like the surveys on smoking pot...most are afraid to admit it.
May I suggest my favorite book on this subject, "Natural Atheism" by David Eller.

bepoo004 · Answer

Rubbish.

What makes us slaves is fear of not being slaves. Most people can't imagine live any other way. Some even feel it's "right" for them to be
slaves as long as they get fed, and other people are slaves as well.

Peoples' desire to confirm makes them easy targets to whathever economic powers want them to think or do. People believe (say, do, eat) what they are think the people around them want them to.
 
This has little to do with religion. Many people belief in science. Science is a believe aswell, as (almost) no one can actually check the formulas for themselves. At most we can say that the scientific laws seem to make sense, which I guess many people will say about Chistianity.

ahimsa32fa · Answer

Scientific "laws" or "theories" can be tested.
Theories about gods cannot.  You choose to have faith (without proof) or you don't.

Religion ("faith" in gods)rejects logic in favor of blind obedience to some politicians who dreamed up scripture thousands of years ago.

The Bible (and other such books) are political manifestos intended to use fear (hell) to control the masses.

ahimsa32fa · Answer

David Eller's follow-up to "Natural Atheism" (2004) is "Atheism Advanced" (2007).

Eller's knowledge of religion and related topics is impressive.  One flaw in his writing is a lack of concern for non-human animals.  While not ignored, it barely gets a mention.  I still put his books high on my list of favorites.

Deb123 · Answer

I disagree. There is an awful lot of thinking that takes place before faith comes into it. I can only speak for Christianity as I'm a Christian but for me it's about a relationship with Jesus...can I prove it to you? No...but I know that he lives in me and we do talk and have conversations. It not about following rules written in a book.

ahimsa32fa · Answer

Most people adopt a particular "faith" or "belief" at a very young age...long before they have the ability or desire to think critically on their own.

I respect your opinion, and would hope that you respect mine.

I like Dawkins explanation of why people "believe":

1) Tradition - People have believed the same thing in the past.

2) Authority - People have learned it from others in a position of authority...parents, teachers, etc.

3) Revelation - People suddenly see something and grasp onto it as truth.

4) Evidence - People believe things to be true based on provable evidence.

I choose the last as the most logical foundation for believing things.

Star the magic vegan · Answer

Religion comes from the Latin word religere, to bind or tie up. I find that most atheists are bound and tied up with endless criticisms towards religion, science as a new found faith and business and government as a solution. I find that many people who say they are 'spiritual' are also bound by beliefs. 
 
I do not think there is anything wrong with being bound by an ideology as long as it causes no harm. 

Atheistic structures like communism have caused tremendous harm to ecosystems, humans, cultures, animals etc. Religious cultures like the Catholic church during the inquisition or Islam during its invasion of India have done the same. Perhaps this is a human problem. Whether the humans are configured socially by atheism, religion or corporations, human nature often goes off the mark into unskillful directions that produces harm. 
 
Faith is a part of everyone's life. When we cross the street we do not know if a car will hit us, but we have faith and cross anyways. Some people operate on little faith and other people's entire life is an unending gambit of faith challenges.  
 
There is no institutional faith. There are groups of people who accord with faith but institutions can not as an entity experience such complex emotions. Institutions can only use the word faith in its charter or doctrine. 
 
I, as a free thinker, operate often with faith. Meditation frees my mind but faith grants endurance. One does not need faith in something or someone, one simply applies faith where needed.

ahimsa32fa · Answer

Star-

The opening sentence in your comment says it all:

Religion means to bind or tie up.  It's religion doing the binding (of minds) not atheism.

Your second paragraph is false.  The harm done by religion is the story of the human species for the past ten millennia.  War and genocide, for example, are clearly condoned in the Bible.

When I cross a street, I don't step out when "faith" tells me it's safe, I LOOK BOTH WAYS and base my decision on evidence that no cars are coming, not on "faith" that they aren't...

Star the magic vegan · Answer

Ahimsa-

Denial, scapegoating religion, lacking of an open scientific mind and a lack of sensitivity is noted in your writing style. Because you obviously missed the point, here is a small list of famous people who were bound and tied to atheism as you are. They caused just as many problems as all other institutions combined in their day. This list implies their movement, their followers and their enforcement apparatus as well.

Mao Tse Tung
Joseph Stalin
Pol Pot 
Adolph Hitler
Ho Chi Minh


We all know you lost your ability to feel complex emotions like faith and that you wrote a book. Should you not be more concerned with a vegan lifestyle for this web site than winning a loosing battle about atheism which has shown itself to fail when implemented?

There are many things you can not know in life. If you wish to eliminate the term faith from your vocabulary that is your business. You only fool yourself. Just because you look both ways before crossing the street does not guarantee a vehicle will be coming your way.

ahimsa32fa · Answer

Star-

Why do you ignore the points I make, and instead come back with insults?

But your insults aside, you make the mistake of thinking that all who call themselves Communists (or Nazis) are atheists.  And that all atheists think alike.  Atheists disagree amongst themselves just as do Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.

I could make a much longer lists of despots and murderous dictators who called themselves Christians.

Interesting that while you've read none of my books, you're quick to criticize.  You might be shocked to know that my books have been endorsed by some pretty well known authors, one of which was a Nobel nominee.

"We all know..." is a rather presumptuous position.  I'd suggest you speak for yourself, rather than assume you know what everyone else thinks.

And by the way, "faith" is not considered an emotion.  It's a state of being that one chooses, as in the Oxford definition, "belief without logical proof".

I understand that atheists make most "believers" uncomfortable.  This is because the arguments put forth by believers are weak and easily challengeable with logic.

I responded already to your silly "crossing the street" argument...apparently you didn't bother to read my entire comment.

As an atheist I can respect your opinion.  Can you say the same?

Star the magic vegan · Answer

Ahimsa-   
 
If you read my original submission to this conversation, I insulted no one. If you read your follow up, you were very insulting to me. It is then further insulting that you would call me insulting. I realize you are sensitive, so don't attack other people and how they perceive.    
 
Your definitions are shallow, misguided and off the mark. Try reading it to Sister Theresa, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Buddha or Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Your desire to win when you are at a loss is getting ridiculous and humorous.   
 
No one is uncomfortable or scared of your shallow attempt to bury your head. Your denial and lack of appreciation for the substance behind Michael Angelo, The soldiers who have fought for this nation, Countless billions of people from multiple cultures and regions of Earth, Native American Medicine people, Refugees fleeing repression, the over burdened, the saintly, the sadhus, those who wait for their children, families in the cancer ward, people with missing  children, prisoners of war, people who are terminally ill etc. etc. is noted and it does not make you correct. It makes you seem lacking.   
 
How does your slander against a wholesome aspect of other people's most profound emotions make you right?    
 
Most importantly, how does any of your rhetoric apply to a vegan lifestyle?     
 
You desecrate the living by creating a false status of sentience and yet you think you are not a speciesist. We are all connected. Even the plants share much of our DNA. The mountains and the rocks and the clouds, the thunder, the moon, the stars are all alive to me. The trees are my sisters, the stars are my brothers. What you offer is blindness to the beauty and connection most people feel in their hearts.   
 
So why don't you go to The Amazing Athiest's web site where you can join your own flock of criminally minded dweebs that have no moral order and rant like selfish lunatics. Many of them are published as well. I have been to these sites and chat rooms and listened to the atheist propaganda and brain washing. It is truly pitiful.    
 
Or perhaps you want to grow.   
 
But that would involve releasing from preconceived set patterns of thinking which is the very same syndrome you think your alleged enemy suffers.

Star the magic vegan · Answer

Beware-

Ahimsa32fa has found a way to edit his posts after others respond. He has done this on many posts.

ahimsa32fa · Answer

Anyone can edit their posts within a limited time frame.

I don't see you or any other believers as an enemy... as you obviously choose to see me.

In all my years, including a number of years in religious studies, I have never before met a Buddhist that uses such vitriol in responding to those who disagree with some of their views.

Star the magic vegan · Answer

How did Ahimsa32fa place his most recent vitriolic attack on me above my warning that he has hacked the system. The date of this most recent atheocentric attack on peaceful Buddhists seems to be dated after my post, but, it is placed on my computer above my post. Hmmmm.  
 
Ahimsa32fa has accused me of being a Christian which he abhorred, and now he slams the Buddhists by slamming me as though I am part of that noble community. Why does he play the victim as he attacks other people and a slew of religions he assumes they enjoin? He does not know my religion yet he shoots fish in the barrel slandering them all as he lunges at me.  
 
So much for his pseudo tolerance. 
 
ps. He will probably edit his latest tirade after my posting even though it is many hours later.

Thalassa4 · Answer

That's not what faith means. Blind following of a leader is called legalism, or dogmatism, and can occur in other ideologies than religion.  

Faith means developing a calm and positive trust in a higher power,  in order to manifest good things, a principle used not only by Christians or Jews, but pagans, in a different way.

This is a vegetarian forum, and there are religious vegetarians. I am one. The 7th Day Adventist church is full of them, though I personally am not Adventist. 

Look up The Daniel Fast, and Christian Vegetarian association or society.

ahimsa32fa · Answer

Dear Star-

Your imagination (and paranoia) is as wild as your flood of insults.  I have not hacked this or any other system.

Until now I would never have expected this from a Buddhist.  Those I've known over the years are very thoughtful, tolerant and a bit more amicable.

Star the magic vegan · Answer

Ahimsa32fa-  
 
Your name of Ahimsa does not suit you. You are not harmless. Ahimsa is the practice of harmlessness, something you might consider acquiring. 
 
Now you are calling me paranoid, insulting, thoughtless, intolerant and inamicable. 

You also for the second time have called me a Buddhist when I have already declined that title. You want me to be the submissive Buddhist you can pummel and I refuse such childish games. 
 
You want to play God and tell us all what is a species and what is not, what is living and what is not. Then you want to play Buddha and tell us all what is Buddhist and what is not.  
 
You have no right to address Buddhism nor the Buddha. Buddhism is not atheistic. You also have no right to use the Sanskrit word Ahimsa because it is central to Hindu, Buddhist and Jain beliefs, none of which are atheistic.  
 
You call yourself Ahimsa while you attack me mercilessly to show everyone what a pseudo tolerant atheocentric hypocrite is and how nastily it opperates.   
 
Please stick to the topic of vegetarianism.  
 
And until you can see through your own charade, please crawl back under your rock.

ahimsa32fa · Answer

Star- 

Science does a pretty good job of telling us what a species is, - I go by the definition that is taught in the field of biology.  But perhaps you know more than biologists, too?

Telling me what I can and cannot speak about sounds like you see yourself as a god or at least one who decides who can exercise freedom of speech and who cannot.

Sorry if I mistakenly called you a Buddhist, but that's what it says in your Profile.

Star the magic vegan · Answer

Ahimsa- 
 
My profile is for nice people. Did you not see the word path? You are not part of that path. 
 
Yes you may stay with science, math, business and communism as the limited sphere of intellect that your atheism proscribes. Your definitions are as small minded as those studies. Those schools of thought have brought us vivisection, atomic bombs, water diversion, industrial pollution, war, torture, labor camps, economic classes, political subjugation, institutional racism, food factories, animal slaughter etc. all in the name of a Godless progress riddled with it's accompanying lack of compassion and disregard for life.    
 
I did not say what you may or may not speak. This is your own twisted mind acting out again. You might as well call yourself communion wafer or Mecca if you are out to insult other people's religions. 
 
You do not seem to understand that your atheism is a limited consciousness and in your case may well be a mental illness. Usually people become atheists because they can not fathom the guilt they suffer from heinous acts. Then to call yourself Ahimsa is to ridicule three of the oldest theistic religions on our planet for which you still accept no responsibility. Your lack of responsibility and integrity is typical of atheists who like you suffer from such psychopathy. It is funny how then atheists suffer theists with unfounded judgements when, in most cases, theists are at least attempting to live a more moral life. 
 
As far as knowing more than 'biologists' know, whatever that means, and it smells like another insult, that is easy. I know history, art, music, sociology, astrology, herbalogy, theology, philosophy, political science and many other fields outside the scope of pure biology. My mind has cultivated through multiple languages, travel, contemplation, education and the like, many differing ways of reasoning. A purely biological view like an atheist view is self limiting, myopic, incorrect and parochial.  
 
Earn some respect and show the good taste and correct manners that is necessary for this forum and drop the word Ahimsa from your name. Also drop the phoneme fa. Fa is Mandarin for method and rice, both of which have a sacredness associated with them, something a desecrate individual can not fathom. To link Ahimsa with fa is very Buddhist and Buddhism is not atheistic. Just call yourself 32 to reflect the limitation your atheism imposes on you.

anahidscv · Answer

Oh my goodness, Star the magic vegan, you sound very offensive.  I am sorry, by reading both of your posts, I would have to take ahimsa's side.  She is not offensive, but expressing only facts. Based on my experience in life, and I continue seeing this, Christians or religious people are the ones that discriminate against so many group of people and set rules based on what it is said in the bible. Religion teaches people to hate homosexuals, approves slavery, stone the crippled and the handicap.  I am sorry, that is not a peaceful and loving God to me.  As a vegan I don't believe in sacrificing of animals for human satisfaction the way it was done in the bible.

Star the magic vegan · Answer

Anahidscv-  
 
Who said anything about the Bible?  
 
You obviously have your own set of prejudices against the Christian community. Shame on you. Bigots like yourself and Ahimsa32fa are the rude ones spreading hatred in the form of pseudo pacifism, pseudo tolerance and pseudo sophistication. Can't you see how you have acted in an opportunistic way, choosing to sideswiped the Christians as you side with one person against another to promote the very judgementalism you find so offensive in Christianity?  
 
Both you and Ahimsa32fa are the very thing you are rebelling against!   
 
As far as my tone is concerned, you have not seen anything yet. You atheists are so rude, so quick to respond with persecution, so judgemental and so arrogantly wrong that you need to be put in your place. You have insulted me as has Ahimsa32fa. Both of you have behaved this way unprovoked because you do not get your way and hold no sway on my values. You are behaving like spoiled atheist brats!

Star the magic vegan · Answer

Anahidscv- 
 
Oh, and one more thing to set you right on your complete confusion about the Bible:   
 
God's view about diet is clearly written in Genisis 1:29 where a vegan diet is the only acceptable diet if one wants to be in the full presence of God. This quote is from before the fall of man.   
 
Everything else you mention such as slavery, homophobia, cruelty towards the crippled, animal cruelty etc. is an historic record of how man behaves outside the garden, no longer in the full presence of God.   
 
Once Adam and Eve left the garden, they lost their God connection. Whom they were listening to after that is anyone's guess. If the Devil can assume the form of a snake in the Garden of Eden, he probably can impersonate God outside of the Garden.   
 
People often want to blame God for the failure of mankind. Remember, we have free will.   
 
If you can not be Christian, try Buddhism or Jainism. You do not have to loose all spiritual practice in your life just because others will not do what you want them to do.

ahimsa32fa · Answer

Please see my 12/30 post under "Wisdom".

Hellhound · Answer

Why do narrow minded people insist on insulting people for their beliefs? If you are so into freethinking then you should respect that people freely chose to believe in gods and to start insulting those beliefs is rude!

Search HappyCow

Wisdom Forum