Community: Forum: Vegetarian Discussion

Vegan / Vegetarian Discussion - All Things Veg*n Forum

What's up with the hostility?
Reading through the forums on this website, I am amazed at the amount of hate and hostility, not only toward those considering a change to a vegetarian diet, but by vegans toward vegetarians?

Personally, I am a vegetarian. I find it amazing the amount of hatred I have received from vegans on this website.

Have those who took up their specific diet forgotten from where they came. Do they really think that spewing hatred is the way to sway people to become more committed to their way of life?

Responses (97)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/07/10 05:22:32

    I disagree with your conclusions & dislike your mood Jimbomatic.

    Anyone transitioning towards a vegetable diet receives abundant support here.

    Yes - your definition of 'vegetarian' Jimbomatic is definitely supported in out-of-date sections of this site - thankfully it is no longer supported by many of the cow loving / animal loving members here.

    The site does not have the budget to support paying a full-time moderator - once enough money is available posts / reviews which focus on cow abuse etc. will be quickly edited or removed.

    You will certainly find examples of 'hate & hostility' of cow & chicken abuse here - I thank everyone who is working to reduce / eradicate it.

    You have tried to swim against the flow & promote cheese eating - sorry Jimbomatic - this will not be tolerated.

    Take a look at a few of the pages on the 'Wayback Machine' - here -*/

    You will see that HappyCow has undergone major editing / updating - especially in the past 2 / 3 years.

    People have given hundreds of hours of their time to the site.

    There are still areas of the site which urgently need to be deleted / worked on.

    Lacto / ovo recipes no longer appear on the site.

    Listings default to purely herbivorous / vegan establishments.

    If you stick around you will see the site steadily becoming more rational.

    Editorial sections will be updated to remove misdefinitions of the word 'vegetarian'.

    Real vegetarianism will be actively promoted - humans living by eating tasty vegetables / vegetation.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Jimbomatic at 08/07/10 06:09:53

    Leave it to the person most guilty of hostility to respond to this question.

    You may think that you have the right to redefine "vegetarian", but the definitions of "vegetarian" and "vegan" were established long ago. Outside of your rants, there is nothing on this website which states that only vegans are welcome.

    You have also managed to twist my words into saying that I "promote" cheese. I have not done so. Unlike you, I have simply chosen to not act hostile toward those who are simply vegetarian, and not vegan. I believe they are just as entitled to civility as any other member on this site.

    The fact that you have come right out and said that vegetarians "will not be tolerated" indicates that you think you are the self-appointed potentate of this website.

    If you are so dead-set on your own set of rules, why don't you start your own website, instead of trying to take over this one.

    Maybe you could call it "".

  • jive's avatar
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    Posted by jive at 08/07/10 16:29:48

    Can't we all just get along? Its supposed to be a compassionate eating guide! Compassionate, not only to animals, but to people as well.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by AndyT at 08/09/10 05:48:17

    > Can't we all just get along?

    I absolutely second that!

    I am vegan because it saddens me to hear what the dairy industry does to cattle.

    However, it saddens me even more if vegans attack vegetarians for not going all the way. Why not reserve your hostility for those still eating meat? I get the impression that a possible reason is that it is most likely easier to bash vegetarians here than have it out with the meat eaters.

    I feel sadness and pity and hope that we will learn to get along better without some moderator having to crash down on netiquette here.

    Best regards,

    PS: If I look into the 'Happy Cow Terms', the following is mentioned explicitely as 'Unacceptable Content':

    - Offensive language, including harmful or abusive language, expletives or profanities, obscenities, or hate speech, or harassing, vulgar, or sexually explicit language

    Please refrain from using it!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by cookies and cream at 08/09/10 15:13:18

    Everybody deserves a chance to choose his path, as Jive said, this is a compassionate eating guide.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/09/10 21:09:24

    There are certainly degrees of compassion. What irks a lot of us who try to contribute and strive for more compassion is when folks, like a lot of you here, spread blatant lies about dairy trying to promote it as if it was a good thing. It clearly is NOT a good thing! It is not healthy for anyone involved and your support of it should not put on a pedestal. Dairy industry is a dirty dirty business and those who come here seeking guidance should be shown the way to doing w/o as quickly as possible. So when these folks ask questions, your pro-dairy agenda should be kept quiet, not celebrated. I am thrilled you stopped slaughtering animals for their flesh directly, so when you speak of encouragement, speak from that positive experience, not the ones that are detrimental in this very important realm. Your otherwise dismissive attitude is what starts these arguments in the first place.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by AndyT at 08/10/10 13:04:43

    > There are certainly degrees of compassion. What irks a lot of us who try to contribute and strive for more compassion is when folks, like a lot of you here, spread blatant lies about dairy trying to promote it as if it was a good thing.

    I fully agree with you - if I see somebody promoting dairy as something healthy and good, I would also intervene.

    However, that is not what I usually see here. Most who say that they still consume dairy products say that in a tone of regret, or ask a simple question - and get insulted nearly instantaneously. That's uncalled for, IMO.

    Best regards,

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/10/10 14:45:09

    It is true there are both dairy eaters who regret it and celebrate it. I think the thread that spawned this one has both. I think most other threads of those who ask for guidance are not met w hostility, but more mentorship. I think some folks here take a page out of PETA's page and try to overstate things for shock value (I am not a fan of peta fwiw, nor most shock tactics, we can reason through things). I have even seen self-proclaimed vegans take pro-dairy stances out of spite, which is just a shame.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by 4everaspirit at 08/13/10 10:14:00

    I may not know the whole story of what has been going on...but I am sorry that you feel like you have been treated that way. :( Everyone is a human being and deserves the same mutual respect. I may not support the dairy industry, but it is ultimately your choice to continue to be vegetarian, nobody else's. I completely understand what you are saying, though. If vegans act negatively to others doing things they don't agree with, it makes others want to change their ways alot less, much less, even think about changing. Vegans are not 'holier than thou' and I'm sorry if you feel like they are acting like it. :( But thankfully, plenty, if not most of us, hopefully don't act like that.
    I know i sometimes get a lot of 'defensiveness' from omnivores which they act out as more of an attack. So, yeah i understand. And yes, have also been there when vegans act the same way for other reasons.
    It is ultimately your lifestyle choice and even though I or others may not necessarily agree with dairy or eggs, I think everyone deserves the same mutual respect. :)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/13/10 19:15:16

    + Everyone is a human being and deserves the same mutual respect. +


    I do not 'respect' child abusers - if they have psychiatric problems I hope that they receive relevant care / treatment.

    Why 'respect' humans who choose to either directly or indirectly abuse cows / chickens / other animals?

    Why not strongly support the animals that they abuse instead?

    Respecting humans who consume animals / animal products over the animals themselves is species-ism.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Fethenwen at 08/16/10 08:20:04

    Hatred will not lead anywhere.

    Hi I'm new by the way.

    I think it's important to embrace this lifestyle, and not judge people. If someone has stopped eating meat, I think that's great! These people will most likely turn vegan over time, that is what happened to me. I was lacto-ovo for a long time, and I even ate fish at times. I would have been deeply insulted and discouraged about my life style changes if someone would have said something bad about me not eating meat, but still not being vegan.

    Every kind of development for the better is good, and we should promote development instead of hating people who have not yet taken the steps towards compassionate living. Living compassionately includes helping people too.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/16/10 18:41:56

    + I would have been deeply insulted and discouraged about my life style changes if someone would have said something bad about me not eating meat, but still not being vegan. +

    I understand what you say Fethenwen - perhaps my experience / angle is very different from yours - i will explain........

    I lived in India for 5+ years & saw lactos adding flesh to their diets - time & time & time again.

    This year in Hong Kong we saw lacto restaurants switching to lacto / flesh menus - I saw it many times in London also

    The word 'vegetarian' was hijacked in 1847 by a strong group of Salford, UK folk who were addicted to ingesting milk & eggs - a case of plain theft.

    So for 160+ years 'The Vegetarian" society & its equally cancerous offshoots have been spreading the twisted story that it is 'OK' & even virtuous to continuously torture cows / goats / chickens / ducks / bees etc..

    If you look at recent posts here Fethenwen you will not find any hatred of 'people' from vegan friends - you will though find abundant disgust of some people's habit of actually promoting & giggling about lacto hereon HappyCow

    'insulting' a % of deviant humans is just fine by me if it gets the message across to some folk that cows are not for torturing.

    Milkies & eggies tend to squeal loudly here when they are 'pulled' about their addictions here. Jimbomatic is just about the loudest squealer & I am perhaps his favorite target right now.

    I was also lacto addicted for many years Fethenwen - I am very, very grateful that some vegans / herbivores / real vegetarians bothered to remind me that milk & egg consumption are totally inappropriate dietary choices - especially for the 2000's.

  • jive's avatar
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    Posted by jive at 08/16/10 21:19:06

    JohnnySensible did these people who reminded of the inappropriateness of egg and dairy consumption do it by insulting you and calling you a giggling lacto deviant? Because that too seems inappropriate........

    Name-calling is also something that dosen't belong in the 2000s

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/17/10 05:56:02

    Hi jive,

    You make me smile! You write some really funny stuff! - "....someone tell JohnnySensible that he is torturing, raping and killing my respect for vegans everywhere with...." - from here -

    Is there really anything wrong wrong with the phrase 'giggling lactos' jive? Is it not deviant behaviour to steal another mammal's mammary gland secretions - especially by repeatedly raping & torturing her as is the norm in your part of the world?

    Personally I do not see anything insulting or inappropriate in this combination of words.

    What do you have against cows jive? - were you kicked by one when you were a child?

    Love & cuddles.


    jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo, gauracānda bole
    kota nidrā jāo māyā-piśācīra kole

  • jive's avatar
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    Posted by jive at 08/17/10 16:37:39

    I would say that any phrase can be used in a derogatory or demeaning manor. And just because "you" dont see anything insulting about your words, dosent mean that you are not insulting people. It certianly won't win people to your side of the argument when you make them out to be your enemy.

    How many cows will be torchered becuase of your failing to befriend Lacto's and ovo's and discuss things with them rationally? Instead you believe you can shame and abuse them into agreeing with you.

    You go ahead and assume that I hate cows. Call me a deviant or an illiterate or any other word you can though my way, because i can take it.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/18/10 08:28:14

    Strange thought processes.

    You twist other people's words so bizarrely jive.

    "befriend ovos & lactos" brings back memories of Matthew 4:19

    David Berg took this form of 'recruitment' to extremes in the 70's & 80's with 'FFing'.

    We may talk one day jive - when your head is straight / milk free.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by AndyT at 08/19/10 01:17:19

    Johnny,I'm afraid you are shooting a bit over the mark.

    I had to smile when I read the thread, because I very recently attended a very nice meeting of Vegans in a vegan restaurant in Hannover where at some point in time the talk came to the subject of 'pets' and one vegan girl mentioned that she has a spider at home in a terrarium.

    As the discussion heated up (some people said that even if that spider does not feel constrained at all - that species supposedly only moves twice in its life, once after it is born and again when it wants to mate, but otherwise spends its life in a 1mx1m area that it never leaves again - even then, it is immoral to keep a pet for your own amusement and it should be forbidden).

    Naturally, there was some discussion on that, and some people were in favour and some against - but at one point, when the noise level was turning from 'discussion' to 'shouting at each other' some participants said 'Look guys, we can discuss this here civilly, but we should still repect each other and refrain from shouting and insults'.

    And then immediately came the argument - 'Hey, I don't respect child molesters either!'

    Now - while that certainly is true, there is a noticeable difference between keeping a spider, drinking milk, and molesting children. So I do not think that this comparison is a valid one, nor does it help the discussion here.

    If you are not able to respect others because they have some flaws, you might find it very difficult to live among your neighbours, work in a job, study at an university and in general interact with other people.

    However, the 'general notion' (very likely even among other vegans) is that in that case, it is not the neighbours, the people in the office or university who are to blame if you do not get along with them, and I am afraid you might make your own life more difficult then necessary. My personal opinion is that there are worthier causes of your enthusiasm and activism.

    To get back to that vegan gathering I attended, there were about 20 vegans, 5 vegetarians and 2 'hard-core vegans' who used the 'child molester' argument to drive home their disgust over the others' shortcomings. And everybody at the table was relieved (albeit a bit sad) when those 2 left to go to the other vegan restaurant in Hannover where they liked the food better.

    Best regards,Andy

  • jive's avatar
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    Posted by jive at 08/19/10 15:37:45

    AndyT you are a wise person my friend. Tolerance and understanding are what win people over. Vegetarians are not likely to go vegan if they feel shunned or hated.

    Its true that they need to be told about the facts (and sometimes that means telling them things they dont want to hear), but without compassion, such words will almost always fall on deaf ears.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/20/10 02:11:35

    Hey Andy,

    Discussions here have mostly been pretty sweet for the last few years.

    .......the connected 'cheesy' thread certainly stirred up some passions though.

    jive keeps coming back to the point that milkies & eggies need 'tender loving care' (TLC) - I quite agree with him on this - .......however they also need to have a teeny weeny bit of humility when they are active on a site such as this one which enthusiastically promotes real vegetarianism.

    jive & Jimbo both seem to actually want to promote dairy consumption here - very strange.......

    This site primarily points folk to places where vegan food is available.

    Of course, primarily because of the 1847 debacle, a whole lot of eating places ignorantly / unconsciously mix veggies with dairy & eggs.

    Helping those places to switch over to purely plant based menus is another goal of many of the members here.

    You write - "Vegetarians are not likely to go vegan if they feel shunned or hated.". Like all addicts they have innumerable reasons not to change their habits. A few % of folk will quickly switch to plant eating once educate themselves - it will take chronic disease etc. to get others switch.

    Telling folk that eating a few animal products is 'OK' is like giving an alcoholic friend a few shot of vodka - it does not help them.



  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/20/10 05:38:00

    Sorry for my typos....

    Corrected -


    You write -

    "Vegetarians are not likely to go vegan if they feel shunned or hated.".

    My response -

    Like all addicts they have innumerable reasons why not to change their habits. A few % of folk will quickly switch to plant eating once they educate themselves - it will take chronic disease etc. to get others switch.


  • jive's avatar
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    Posted by jive at 08/21/10 08:32:42

    JohnnySensible you are absolutly right that cheese is like an addiction. But you are absolutly wrong that I promote the consumption of cheese. I promote the humane treatment of people (which includes "cheesies" as you like to call them).

    Helping someone break their addiction means giving them the strength to fight those bad habbits. Name-calling and generalizations only serve to feed that addiction. A drug is meant to make someone feel good right? So what do you think happens when you make them feel bad?

    Consuming animal products is not "OK", but neither is promoting an exclusively Vegan website. To so so would rob vegetarians of the opportunity to communicate with vegans and gain that "humility" that you speak of (not to mention make friends and learn the truth about where milk really comes from).

    You can quote me on this: "cheese should no be promoted on happy cow". However, if Happy cow is willing to allow the persecution of people who havent yet reached that level or maturity, then I want no part of it.......

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Fritz at 08/21/10 09:19:39

    Thank goodness for vegan cheese! I love melting it on veggies, refried beans, etc., and don't miss dairy cheese at all!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Jimbomatic at 08/22/10 18:07:37

    Jive...don't even bother argueing with Johnny. He isn't interested in whether or not someone is "promoting" cheese....which clearly, neither you or I has been doing. He is simply interested in pumping up his ego and trying to make himself out as superior to vegetarians.

    As you have said many times....his stance will do nothing to convert vegetarians to vegans. It will only drive them away.

    Frankly, if I ever came across to my meat-eating acquaintances the way that Johnny comes across to vegetarians, I hope one of them dope-slaps me and lets me know I'm being a jerk.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/23/10 02:01:17

    There is still illogic showing here on HappyCow.

    Promotion of solid flesh / meat is usually spotted & quickly deleted.

    Promotion of liquid meat / other animal products such as eggs, honey, milk, cheese, butter, yoghurt, etc. often goes unnoticed.

    A lot of cleaning up work has been done on the site in recent years - ....but there are still perhaps 20+ full pages which are 'not completely animal friendly' & many poor quality reviews. They will all be tidied up in time.


    ...and now yo Jimbomatic.

    Your unfortunate posts are still there for anyone to see Jimbo -

    ......and now we have even more vitriol (H2SO4)from you - very nice - you are still 'squealing' almost a month after you attempted to 'push' cheese here with your bizarre claims that it was somehow 'vegetarian' i.e. that it somehow grew on trees or plants!

    Jimbo - learn a lesson from your 'Dear Leader' Mr. Obama - he is hooked on smoking cigarettes - ......but he has enough manners not to pass cigarettes out to all & sundry. I am 'driving away' some Sméagol like persons to dark places where they will chew on lumps of cheese & feel rejected - have a really wild imagination Jimbo.

    .... and ...... unless we turn HappyCow into a place where they can chat & giggle about their dietary perversions.

    You could make good money writing fiction Jimbo!

    Maybe you need to follow the lead of William Burroughs - 'All signs pointed him back to Tangier, a place where his parents would have to continue the support and one where drugs were freely available.'.

    You suggested creating a site "" to me Jimbo - here is my counter suggestion for you - you might have much much more 'fun' at than you do here Jimbo!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/23/10 11:04:49

    Hey, Jive, Jimbo and others, y'all have crossed a line. At one point you were within reason to express concern about tone of threads, something that concerns me at times too. However, in trying to deny Johnny's posts, you have gone to a point now that you are being very dismissive of the foundation of Happycow, compassion to animals. Say what you will about Johnny, and you have, he is standing up for animals and their freedom and sentience. You have dismissed the case and cause of vegans who refuse animal abuse caused by their captors in the name of food production. Milk and cheese are not just magic packages at the grocery store, the source of dairy is brutal and you are very nonchalantly dismissing the serious nature of it to assuage either your guilt or to lighten the truth so as to deny the heavy ramifications of your actions. Johnny says he feels like it is akin to child abuse, and rather than ponder the meaning of it, you mock him, his feelings and what a lot of us stand for, compassion for animals. I think you have to be ashamed of yourselves a bit here, You have no right to mock the depth of someone's compassion on a website that states on every page that it is a compassionate eating guide.

    You will lose every argument you start that eating dairy is compassionate.

    I have written this very clearly and rationally. What now do you say to the tone and manner of your treatment? It is not the manner or tone, but your guilt I gather that really chides you.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Yoshi at 08/23/10 17:39:04

    Senseless Johnny, here are a few websites you should look into:

    I really think you would benefit from some interaction with a real live human person, not through the internet. Try not to be so mean at first, you just may find a friend. As I've mentioned before, you are the epitome of the 'typical vegetarian'...caring more for a flea than for your fellow humans. You speak vehemently against the torture of animals, and I applaud you for it. But I ask, what about the human animals? Why is it OK for you to torture us, as we are all being tortured by your closed-minded, self-righteous existence? Before I go, I have one final question, early on in this post you said "If you stick around you will see the site steadily becoming more rational." I'm just wondering, those of us who do not agree 100% with you...what will happen to us? Will we be loaded onto trains and shipped away, never to be seen or heard from again? Will we be lobotomized? Castrated? Forced to where a yellow star on our sleeves?

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/23/10 18:48:31

    More of Yoshi's strange extrapolations!

    Now you are 'down' on both cows & fleas!

    'Fellow humans / human animals' - screw fellow human animals who ignorantly toss other animal's mucus, puss, blood etc. into their ugly mouths several times a day.

    I choose to mostly mix with any of the millions of human animals who adore health-giving plants & who actively promote businesses which sell purely plant based food.

    Folk who try to argue here for even 'just a little' cow & chicken abuse etc. do not interest me at all.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/23/10 20:55:02

    Talk about hostility?!!!
    You invoke the Holocaust like it is nothing?!
    I don't care who the hell you think you are but that is uncalled for and outrageous. You need to get your head checked.

    If we were on another site, I'd tell you where to take your anti sentiments and where you could take them. Not only that, but let me tell you of all the pathetic lowlifes on this site, no matter what you think of others, YOU ARE THE WORST offender of them all. Jerk

  • jive's avatar
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    Posted by jive at 08/24/10 01:34:18

    kindlizard, exactly where on this thread did someone advocate against compassion towards animals? Its is humans that mistreat animals and it is humans that must learn to live in harmony with them!

    Nobody is disagreeing that child abuse is one of the worst crimes imaginable, or that animals are abused just as badly. But if every person whom consumed cheese was tried for the crime of child abuse, this planet would become a huge prison.

    "Forgiveness is a form of compassion too" and if we cannot forgive a cheese eater for committing a crime they may not even realize they are committing, they we have no business claiming to be compassionate towards anything.

    "If we destroy ourselves with our constant disagreements, then who will be left to fight for animal rights?"

    Johnny, compassion must apply to people too, otherwise you are missing the point. Making ourselves out to be the enemies of meat and dairy eaters will encourage them to eat more steak and drink more milk, and probably do it with a smile just to spite us. That does not sound like the goal of a vegan to me....

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/24/10 13:23:21

    It seems your overall goal, and your buddy's as well, is to derail the entire forum across threads to stand this website into a devil's advocate quorum, which is useless. Talk about hurting people, what does the deliberate misinformation you and yours secondarily and nonchalantly dish out on behalf of the dairy council hurts real people who come hear looking for Truth and guidance. Dairy strips bones of calcium due to its ratio of protein that isn't assimilated by the body. EDUCATE YOURSELVES!!

    So far you haven't contributed anything of worth or value. Not a shred other than snarky name-calling and back-biting. Go away, isn't school back in session yet? Bring something worthwhile or leave it be.

    So when you think you are benefiting cheeseheads or whatever w your go milk bs just remember that you are slowly killing them, which is far from compassion.

  • jive's avatar
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    Posted by jive at 08/25/10 07:51:33

    Again, who on this thread is pushing go milk or the dairy council? And where is this misinformation to which you refer?

    I am very curious, where is the truth and guidance in telling someone to go away? And who exactly are these real people that you speak of? Does not everyone deserve educate themselves here on happy cow?

    One last thing kindlizard, your good buddy JohnnySensible also happened to invoke the holocaust in the "is cheese vegetarian" thread. I wonder if you will have choice words for him too........

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/26/10 00:30:46

    Jive - a request - stop hiding - reveal your real identity - it makes debate so much more interesting.

    Scroll up to the top - 'tis Jimbo who sometimes forgets where he is.

    This thread is Jimbo's comment on

    Have you taken a peek at the Stonyfield Farm website? - I stand by my comment.

    + These sicko's are treating cows in exactly the same way that Hitler treated some humans - 'kill some - torture some - keep some for breeding purposes' - see - +

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 09/18/10 00:52:02


    You posit yet another false either/or scenario. Those usually leave out the third or fourth options, which are usually best. As if in life we have to choose between those two unpleasant scenarios. Why not broaden your mind to encompass the correct choice?

    Why not just shoot yourself in the leg since it is better than shooting yourself in the head? Seemingly the lesser of two evils, right? Tell me how it goes...

  • jive's avatar
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    Posted by jive at 08/27/10 17:55:44

    I can't disagree with you that milk is gross Johnny, but I gotta believe that choosing organic dairy over the non-organic kind is at least a step in the right direction.

    It is conscious decisions like that lead people to becoming vegan and vegetarian.

    I don't believe Jumbo's post was to 'promote' cheese, but rather to simply answer a question about it, and to provide information relative to the topic.

    To me, that is promoting education, not to mention a willingness to help those who are seeking guidance. Claiming that lacto vegetarians hurt cows badly, on the other hand, sounds more judgmental than educational.

    If I do have a real identity Johnny, and choose not to reveal it; its because I for one don't like being judged for who or what I am.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 09/07/10 13:48:25

    You are still spreading misinformation, contributing nothing but lies, and resorting to name-calling/childish means of communication. Have you read the organic dairy thread I posted? And you still have the gall to describe it as better? On this planet? Your promotion of og dairy is a joke, especially in light of the thread in which the og dairy farmer/businessman confesses to not knowing what the heck he is doing. You're obstinately ignorant and I think it is time to either bring reason and fact to the thread and forum in general, or just refrain from posting since you otherwise have yet to contribute anything meaningful or truthful.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/08/10 03:52:13

    "To resign oneself to lacto-vegetarianism as a satisfactory solution to the diet problem is to accept a sequence of horrible farmyard and slaughter-house incidents as part of an inevitable Divine Plan. Need it be added that it would imply too accepting the spectacle of a grown man attached to the udder of a cow as a dignified and rational intention on the part of Nature!" - Donald Watson from the very first 4 page issue of 'The Vegan News' - November 1944.
    Scanned copy -
    'Decoded' text -
    Donald had a fabulous sense of humor.

    I find Jive & Jimbo's posts quite humorous.

    Meditate on the hope that after a few milk free months their various tubes may start to unblock - clear & happy thoughts may start to spin around their brains - they may even become quite fun to be with.

    After many, many failed attempts I remember well the feeling after 1/2/3 cheese-free & milk-free months.

    Perhaps we will start an 'LA' group here - 'Lactos Anonymous'.
    Roger Ebert remembering a conversation with his doctor - a day or so before his last ever alcoholic drink - from

    + One day, after a month of sobriety, I went to see him because I feared I had grown too elated, even giddy, with the realization that I need not drink again. "Maybe I'm manic-depressive," I told him. "Maybe I need lithium."

    "Alcohol is a depressant," he told me. "When you hold the balloon under the water and suddenly release it, it is eager to pop up quickly." I nodded. "Yes," I said, "but I'm too excited. I wake up too early. I'm in constant motion. I'd give anything just to feel a little bored."

    "Lois, will you be so kind as to come in here?" he called to his wife. She appeared, an elegant Jewish mother. "Lois, I want you to open a little can of grapefruit segments for Roger. I know you have a bowl and a spoon." His wife came back with the grapefruit. I ate the segments. He watched me closely. "You still have your appetite," he said. "When you feel restless, take a good walk in the park. Call me if it doesn't work." It worked. I knew walking was a treatment for depression, but I didn't know it also worked for the ups. +

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by VeganBeader at 09/08/10 19:53:10

    I support Johnny's request for named, identifiable profiles.

    My name is Stephen Green.

    My Facebook connection is on my profile.

    I believe that the occasional episodes of e-rage & abuse which appear on HappyCow would be reduced if more people made themselves identifiable.

    For example, we got to know Yoshi a little bit here, , I would like to know Yoshi's real identity.

    Debating with anonymous persons is not satisfying to me, that is why I rarely post to this forum.

    anonymous (adj)

    Synonyms: nameless, unidentified, unnamed, unsigned, unspecified, unknown, secret, mysterious, shadowy, undistinguished, indistinctive, ordinary, everyday, run of the mill, unexceptional, unmemorable, dull

    Antonym: named, distinctive

    Last point for today - I wholly support HappyCow's stance in promoting real vegetarianism, plant based diets & I really appreciate the recent updates which have been made to pages such as this one

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 09/09/10 01:18:17

    Thanks for that blast from the past. I had several posts removed and edited from that thread. As far as anonymity goes, I am starting to come around to the idea you present. I have been a staunch supporter of the right to not be out there, in the past bc as an avid reviewer I thought it was a protection against kitchens spitting in my food and such if I bagged a place. Nowadays I think in trying to get a rental unit or a job and the access of google and such, it is more ammo for a potential employer or landlord that may not be favorable. I don't "need" that next employer to know I hate their cafe, or I think he/she is a twisted jerk for killing animals before I even get a job (or rental, or admitted to a school etc...)

    But there is a benefit still of being accountable, and I think we have seen an influx recently of folks who care very little for this site and they spew nonsense. It is about fact vs delusion it seems. I can only implore people to consider going vegan if you are already veggie. I will bet you will feel better, and the worst thing that happens is you don't and you don't, you know. But in the least, stop spreading misinformation.

    Vegan Pride!!!

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    Posted by jive at 09/09/10 01:29:52

    kindlizard, usually when one accuses another of lying and spreading misinformation, they provide a few examples.

    Please point out a specific quote where I used childish name-calling.

    Oh and for the record, I don't promote dairy or dairy farming. I promote higher conscious decision making. Few people can jump from eating bloody steaks one day to going full fledged vegan the next. There is usually different steps involved, and various stages of vegetarianism as they choose more and more conscientious dietary lifestyles. Choosing organic dairy over the traditional kind is one such example of this.

    JohnnySensible, I can think no more of an arrogant stance then to find humor and amusement in the serious discussions of others.

    VeganBeader, I would have to disagree. When anonymous, a debate becomes about logic verses logic. When named and identified, the debate becomes about person verses person. This only results in creating a personal grudge between debaters, and turns an intellectual discussion into an emotionally driven argument. This doesn't mean that people shouldn't get to know each other. But learning everything about a person by reading their profile would defeat the purpose of getting to know them at all.

    If debating is the process of learning which is the true logic; then communication is process of learning ones true identity.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/09/10 05:42:08


    Again you are differentiating between flesh & dairy - .... and suggesting that some types of dairy are 'better' than others.

    + Oh and for the record, I don't promote dairy or dairy farming. I promote higher conscious decision making..........various stages of vegetarianism as they choose more and more conscientious dietary lifestyles. Choosing organic dairy over the traditional kind is one such example of this. +

    Translation -

    + Blah, blah & blah - milk is a vegetable - organic dairy is OK. +

    You have no grasp of logic whatsoever jive.

    To paraphrase a famous English writer whose name is escaping me right now - 'I have no idea what passes out from you ar$e - it seems that all of your $hit is coming out from your brain & mouth.'.


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Fritz at 09/09/10 08:02:19

    "Few people can jump from eating bloody steaks one day to going full fledged vegan the next. There is usually different steps involved, and various stages of vegetarianism as they choose more and more conscientious dietary lifestyles. Choosing organic dairy over the traditional kind is one such example of this. "

    So true, Jive. I well recall my organic dairy phase. The existence and availability of vegan cheeses helped me progress out of it, and I have NO desire to go back!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/09/10 17:45:18

    Many of us - myself included - can recall our 'organic dairy phase' Fritz.

    .........but saying that it is somehow a 'more conscientious dietary lifestyle' is pure baloney.

    .........and calling eating animal products 'stages of vegetarianism' is also misleading.

    The pseudo-vegetarian lacto community - of which I was once a member - loudly broadcasts the message that it is 'all right' to continue to hurt cows / buffalos / goats / sheep to take their milk.

    HappyCow moved on from this position quite some time ago.

    Please use this Forum to educate & help people - not to confuse & mislead them.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Fritz at 09/09/10 18:37:52

    ".........but saying that it is somehow a 'more conscientious dietary lifestyle' is pure baloney."

    Johnny, I think the point is that when a vegetarian chooses to consume organic dairy products, they THINK this is a 'more conscientious dietary lifestyle,' whether or not it actually is. I thought it was, when I moved from regular dairy products to organic ones. Such vegetarians are moving in the right direction, which is what I think Jive meant.

    ".........and calling eating animal products 'stages of vegetarianism' is also misleading."

    I don't think so, since I think that for many of us, lacto-ovo vegetarianism was a stage, or phase.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/09/10 19:46:37

    Agreed in part Fritz,

    Many very well funded sites promote lacto & ovo diets.

    HappyCow does not & has not for a couple of years - even then it did not promote them intentionally - folk used to post cheesy, milky, eggy recipes / articles etc. & HC simply did not have the staff to notice the posts & delete / edit them.

    ......but whenever we point this out here jive & some others we get weird comments such as this one by our buddy jive -

    + Consuming animal products is not "OK", but neither is promoting an exclusively Vegan website. +

    - see above for the context.

    jive denies us the right to have a 100% real vegetarian / vegan Forum.

    jive repeatedly demands the 'right' to promote dairy here.

    .....also Fritz it is not necessary / accurate / helpful to continue to add the word 'vegetarianism' to lacto & ovo dietary choices.

    If you find out that the watch that your grandfather gave to you was actually stolen & you identify the true owner you pass it back to them.

    The word vegetarian was purloined by some wealthy Christian fundamentalists a long, long time ago & dairy / egg / honey producers continue to fund their various 'Vegetarian' societies.

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    Posted by jive at 09/10/10 04:39:53

    Oh JohnnySensible, if blah blah blah is your best counter to my argument, then I will just save my energy in the future.

    If someone wishes to change their dietary lifestyle for the better, then it is indeed a conscientious decision. To frown on this is to frown on the very process of becoming vegan.

    I disagree with the concept of a purely vegan forum because it would prevent vegetarians form talking things out with those vegans, and subsequently gaining their insights into a new even more conscientious diet then the one they already have. How you JohnnySensible see this as promoting dairy is beyond me.

    I don't think organic dairy is ok, but people have crawl before they can walk. I believe it is more helpful to aid them journey and salute them for making whatever progress they make (especially since only a small percentage of people ever really consider what it is they are actually eating), then it is to shame them for having to take that step in the first place.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Fritz at 09/10/10 06:04:38

    "jive denies us the right to have a 100% real vegetarian / vegan Forum."

    Well, Johnny, have you considered the possibility of starting a "Vegan ONLY" thread, in which participants would be reminded at the top that ONLY pro-vegan comments would be welcome?

    ".....also Fritz it is not necessary / accurate / helpful to continue to add the word 'vegetarianism' to lacto & ovo dietary choices."

    It is accurate, Johnny, according to most descriptions I have read of the various kinds of vegetarianism. If such descriptions ever disappear from most encyclopedias, books, etc., then I will stop using the terms "lacto-vegetarian" and "lacto-ovo vegetarian."

    I think you and I are in agreement, though, Johnny, that it is unethical to take milk and eggs from other species. When shopping for groceries, I NEVER buy dairy products, eggs (or honey); and when ordering at or from restaurants, I try to select vegan dishes as much as possible.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/10/10 07:01:04

    "Vegan ONLY" thread - the opposite has been discussed Fritz - the possibility of having a tiny 'cheesy, milky zone' - where angry evangelical lactos could giggle about how many cows they had been responsible for torturing! I am joking Fritz - there have fewer than 10 members who have really been really 'pushing' cheese / organic dairy etc. here on this Forum in the past few years.

    Terminology - my angle is that it never hurts to remind some folk that they are running with stolen property / wholly inappropriate labels.

    Veganism is growing exponentially - mostly through brave start-ups.

    .......perhaps some existing lacto businesses will also clean up their recipes / kitchens & make the switch.

    .......perhaps just a few of the world's 'Vegetarian Societies' will wake up to the fact that they are responsible for causing innumerable animals to suffer.

    I know that you do not understand - I wish you well - please remember to let me know if you ever see dairy milk or cheese growing on trees / vines / grasses / tubers etc. - maybe Monsanto will introduce it.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Fritz at 09/10/10 07:14:48

    "Veganism is growing exponentially - mostly through brave start-ups."

    This is wonderful, isn't it, Johnny?! I am so thankful that there are FOUR vegan/vegetarian Thai restaurants close by that my partner and I can call for delivery!

    ".......perhaps some existing lacto businesses will also clean up their recipes / kitchens & make the switch."

    It would be very nice indeed if they did!

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    Posted by jive at 09/10/10 12:31:06

    I would rather look for soymilk and vegan cheese, johnny. But you go head and assume what you want.

    I for one dont like that there are so many ugly stages to get to veganism, after all we all start off as meat eaters... but vegetarianism is one of those stages (regardless of how horrific the dairy industry is) choosing to no longer eat meat is a conscientious decision. True its not the most conscientious, but it is a brave start-up none the least.

    For whatever reason JohnnySensible, you persist in your claim that vegetarianism is a crime, that simply being vegetarian is a promotion of animal abuse, and that somehow people can become vegan without taking any steps to get there.

    Your right of course, I dont understand. Perhaps when vegans start growing from trees / vines / grasses / tubers etc. you will remember to let me know......

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 09/11/10 01:58:19

    Did you read the link I posted about OG Dairy? That is better in your mind? Or have you spent so much more money over time that you have convinced yourself it must be? Saying so doesn't make it so, just more lies.

    You want to answer questions w/o answering them? How about this: Show one thing you have contributed on this site. One thing that has merit and usefulness that doesn't merely antagonize or spread brutal lies.

    But for your promotion of dairy: "but I gotta believe that choosing organic dairy over the non-organic kind is at least a step in the right direction. It is conscious"

    WRONG!!! Try reading the article and EDUCATE YOURSELF!!! I have only posted it on every thread you promote dairy, it is easy to find. Once again?! OK.

    Have a mindful of sentience while you are at it. Check yourself before you wreck yourself! What is your aim here? To provoke and antagonize (troll) or to come to a higher understanding and attainment? Reading your posts it is very obvious what your intention is. Snarky maliciousness promoting dairy, trying to derail those on a path to veganism bc it threatens your conscience to see others doing what's right. People are moving forward w/o you, so get out the way!

    "Please don't dominate the rap Jack,
    If you got nothing new to say
    If you please don't back up the track
    This train got to run today"

    Vegan Pride y'all

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    Posted by jive at 09/11/10 21:28:59

    kindlizard if I am indeed a troll, then I suggest you report me to the happy cow staff.

    As far as your post goes, it almost sounds like you believe people can become vegan at the drop of a hat. All I am suggesting is that, there are many steps that must be taken, and that each one is set in motion by a newly founded awareness (or higher conscientious decision, as I like to call it).

    If people could become vegan without needing to go through the vegetarianism phase, then no one would be more thrilled than me. I never said that organic dairy farming was perfect, or even close to it. My argument is that, any choice to be more conscious of what one is really eating, is a good choice, regardless.

    I stand by what I say. It is those kind of choices that lead one down the path to veganism. But if I am wrong, and someone can offer a method to becoming vegan that doesn't involve various steps first, then I certainly want to hear it.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/12/10 18:45:53

    jive - on August 2nd you started to abuse myself & some of my vegan friends in the previous thread - you have kept this up for more than 5 weeks now.

    Your posts here are painful to read jive.

    'more conscious' - very strange thinking.

    You are making fully false premises jive.

    Your idea of 'many steps' is completely crazy to me.

    My mates go vegan directly nowadays.

    Your type of 'vegetarianism' is a trap.

    Dairy eating is a trap.

    A very nasty trap indeed for the animals which are hurt to feed what you call 'vegetarians'.

    Your type of 'vegetarian' is a dark lie which was started by some Christian crazies in Manchester England 160+ years ago, a lie which has been repeated so many times that tens of millions of people now believe it & use it as their 'excuse' for hurting cows & chickens.

    When there were only 1 billion or so on the planet there was perhaps enough land to keep cows etc. alive & take their milk without causing so much suffering.

    Nowadays milk is not a compassionate food option for anyone.

    Could you kill & torture calves & cows yourself jive?

    Just because someone else does it for you seems to have made you convinced that it is somehow not criminal to indirectly be the cause of terrible hurt & death to animals.

    You may not be a troll but your thinking is certainly confused, outdated & very, very harmful to cows.

    You talk about logic but I do not see any logic in your posts jive.

    Now you have firmly positioned yourself as 'part of the problem'.

    With a little shift in consciousness you can become 'part of the solution.

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    Posted by jive at 09/12/10 23:55:03

    From what you describe Johnny, I should banished form happy cow immediately!!! If I am as horrible a person as you make me out to be, then why hasn't my profile been deleted yet?

    If I am indeed a troll as you and kindlizard claim, then one surefire way to getting rid of me is to start a petition. If you can get 12 members (who have been on happy cow since before 2009) to state that they want me to leave, then I will delete my own profile.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 09/13/10 00:54:28

    AS someone who is NOT vegan, who are you to speak of an indefinite organic dairy phase? That is so ridiculous, as have all your claims been. That is a definition of a troll. Your asking for a petition is also defined by a troll. Your entire being here is trolling, just google the wiki definition and you will learn that yes you are a troll. All those w tenure here know it, it takes longer at times for admin to lock it down, but believe me in time, your antics will be inevitably denied. What was your contribution again?

    So maybe another educational tool (this is bringing information to the table) would be to read how the lack of rbgh drops the milk production 10%, yet you the organic consumer are being charged twice as much (from this month's Consumer Reports). So in round numbers, 200 gallons at $5/gal = $1000, or 180 gallons at $10/gal for $1800.

    You are only fooling yourself. New members have already spoken out how YOU have NOT dissuaded them from the drop-of-a-hat vegan transition! You no longer matter. Take your ball and go home! You are arguing a point contrary to this website (another definition of TROLL)! See ya!!

    Vegan PRIDE!!!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/13/10 04:48:39

    Actually kl I personally hope that jive hangs around a while longer & continues to write his 'off' posts - they generate some excellent responses!

    He could be a little more accurate though - for example I never called him a troll.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by AndyT at 09/13/10 07:57:13

    > jive denies us the right to have a 100% real vegetarian / vegan Forum.

    Indeed, but is the forum meant to be a 100% real vegatarian/vegan forum?

    On the 'home' page it reads:

    > HappyCow's vegetarian restaurants guide is a global, searchable vegetarian dining guide and directory of natural health food stores, including nutrition & health tips, vegan recipes, raw foods, travel, veganism and other vegetarian issues.

    To me that looks as if the forum caters to both vegan and vegetarian people....

    Best regards,

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by eric at 09/13/10 09:29:26

    Jive and everyone are free to express their opinions here. It doesn't seem to me that Jive's only intention here is to disrupt or abuse members. His points represent the thinking of some people who identify themselves as "vegetarian" even though they are still causing animal suffering. While there is some truth that some people do change in stages to being vegan (even in this day & age), the fate of our planet really requires quick movement and transformation.

    It's our position on HappyCow that dairy is equally and sometimes more harmful than other animal by-products, in terms of animal abuse, the environment, and health issues. We have no interest in promoting organic dairies or "free-range" anything here, nor sending people to websites of businesses which offer that.

    Clearly the best / fastest / most intelligent path is to bypass dairy all together, group it together with eating veal, and move on.

    Tread gently guys.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/13/10 21:19:07

    I am happy to read your post Eric.

    It is good that you clearly restated the policy of HC today.
    Andy T. - I was going to reply to you this morning (Hong Kong time) - but now Eric's post has covered everything that I was about to type.
    kl - progress - I thank you for your support - I somehow lost your last note - would you mind reposting it here.

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    Posted by jive at 09/14/10 08:05:17

    I have seen videos of cows being milked in dairy farms; it's the first and foremost reason why I no longer drink milk. I

    I would agree that vegetarianism isn't the ‘best' choice, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a good choice. Its still a conscious decision to be concerned with animal life. However, the cold fact is that any dairy farm (organic or otherwise) perpetuates animal cruelty.

    As far as quick movement and transformation goes, its hard enough to convince a meat eater to go vegetarian. To convince them to go straight to veganism would require a greater argument than I can think of. I imagine though, that convincing a vegetarian to go vegan shouldn't be nearly as difficult (when handled diplomatically of course). Simply screaming at them to "educate yourselves" probably doesn't do much to persuade people.

    I would start by saying, if they made one conscious decision to concern themselves with animal welfare in becoming vegetarian, then they should have no difficulty making that next -even greater- decision by going vegan.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 09/14/10 12:58:37

    How long is the *organic dairy phase* supposed to be? I missed this step and maybe I should go back if you say it is one I should take. I never read about this phase on HC before. How long,jive, has it been since you were in this *phase*? When does it cease to be a *phase* and become a lifestyle? How long once you recognize it as a *phase* do you allow yourself to transition, or should we just quit trying at this point? I have read countless books, magazines articles and online articles and seemed to have missed this notion of an *organic dairy phase*, can you please refer me to whatever it is you've been reading or smoking? Seems like you prefer myths rather than fact and vegan encouragement. Well despite all that, great strides have been made, people are still turning to vegan lifestyles as seen in the other thread.

    As far as MY tone, it is always quite civil and rather eloquent to other vegetarians who have questions or concerns and I encourage anyone w vegan transition questions to pm me or comment my wall. I am a great resource. This knucklehead is only trying to get my goat (and milk it) by insisting on nonsense and making up *phases*, trying to inhibit others from taking steps he is afraid to do. jive talkin' is inherent in the name.

    I seriously doubt jive you have ever *convinced* anyone to become vegetarian, so what would you know on making folks vegan? People don't need convincing. They need education since the beef and dairy councils spend infinite amounts of money brainwashing you when you are young. Convincing treats people like they are small-minded fools (I can see why you would see yourself as such), whereas we here try to respect people as able to make the right decision once fact and truth are brought to light. You are afraid of these truths and facts, ignore the educational tools provided and rant irrationally about made up terms. You, therefore, don't matter. You are an impediment rather than an aid in a great cause.

    I know first-hand plenty of vegans who made the transition all at once. Know plenty others third-hand. Your *theory* is false. I don't know why you would insist on coming here to avow it, but my encouragement for you is not to become vegan, rather get out of the way of others to do so. You are a liar and myth-maker, you serve no purpose here except delusion. Your work here has fallen short, vegans have transitioned into their higher selves as seen elsewhere.

    Vegan PRIDE!! take some w you

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    Posted by jive at 09/16/10 00:08:00

    Kindlizard I never went through the organic dairy phase either, but some people do.

    I think its wonderful that people become vegan, and to do it quickly and without a long period of vegetarianism is truly inspiring.

    To answer your question, I have no idea how long any phase will last; it depends on the person. I never said anyone should go through an organic dairy phase, just that some people do, and it shows a willingness on their part to seek a more animal friendly alternative. Even if in the end they are still doing harm, making a choice to better things must still count for something.

    And your right kindlizard, not everyone needs convincing. Most people who go vegan or vegetarian do so with no better argument than the voice of their conscience.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/16/10 00:31:16

    Again jive....slightly sweeter style / much more polite - but always you slip in your doublespeak.

    + ......a more animal friendly alternative. +

    + ......making a choice to better things must still count for something. +

    Read Eric's post - above - "We have no interest in promoting organic dairies or "free-range" anything here......"

    I have to disagree with Eric's conclusion - in almost every post that you make here you write something to undermine the goals of this site jive.

    Whatever other flowery phrases you write your real goal is to encourage dairy consumption.

    So many of the various "Vegetarian Societies" are funded by the advertizing budgets of dairy farmers & their customers.

    Dairy farmers adore folk like you jive - spread a little doubt - keep folk sucking on those cows nipples!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/16/10 00:50:36

    A prime example of 'milky vegetarianism' -

    Community Foods in the UK -

    The business started trading from a squat in the early 70's - organic rice plus, plus, plus - in the 80's quite a few of the team became 'born again Christians' - then they fully sold out to milky killers.

    + In September 2006, Milk Marque, the successor company to the Milk Marketing Board of England and Wales purchased the entire share capital of Community Foods (Holdings) Ltd and the business passed to shareholder hands of over 12,000 British Farmers. +

    Devoted to abusing cows.

    ......feed them 'organic' anything - rape them to keep them almost continuously pregnant - kill their male calves quickly - once they are 5 / 6 years old send them off to the slaughter house to be killed & made into burgers.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 09/16/10 01:02:51

    I have asked you several times already, jive, where have you read about this *phase*? I have read a lot of material and never come across it. Also, I just googled that phrase, and other than this thread, it didn't show up anywhere. So, I think you are making this up.

    You are thereby encouraging folks to take an approach that is your own approach, apparently. The *jive way* is what it shall be referred to here on out, so we don't tag any more google entries nor give any more credence to it. This jive way of yours, how can you be so convinced of the benefit of it when you have not read the material I posted, or disregarded it? You are full of ideas that disregard fact. You disregard the nature of reality if you think OG dairy is an evolutionary step. Foolish, unwise and full of some of the trace amounts of manure they allow in milk production.

    No wonder your argument devolves so quickly, it has no truth or fact as basis, and your mouth has run out of tp for all that jive talk. "Continue to rain and cause screaming pain"

    Cite me one published work that recognizes this step. ONE! I thought so, liar.

    Vegan Pride!!

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    Posted by jive at 09/16/10 21:42:47

    I've made my point pretty clear, if you havent gotten it by know, then I cant help you.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 09/16/10 23:26:01

    no, you certainly cannot, nor do I want your help. You lost your point once you realized it was made w smoke and mirrors. Making up phrases to try to make a point is no way to influence arguments. Try reading a few links posted in this thread and around Happycow. You might learn a few things, included some actual phrases that do exist, and some truths that sadly exist about the torture and murder you inflict in your theories.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by AndyT at 09/17/10 11:33:15


    thank you for clarifying HappyCow's position on milk.

    HOWEVER ... I find myself hard pressed *not* to advocate a *dairy lifestyle* over a *meat lifestyle* that, unfortunately, most people we meet on the street every day, still pursue. However much I try to convince myself, I still do not believe that a person who drinks milk and eats cheese might as well go back to eating meat and fish in addition to drinking milk.

    And that is what this *dairy phase* is all about ... it is 'the lesser of two evils' and, if it only lasts a short time, all the better.

    Best regards,

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by eric at 09/17/10 12:02:20

    Hi Andy,

    Why not just stop with all the labels, stages, & phases?
    Best way is just to be as compassionate as possible all the time- each moment of one's life.
    PS: never suggested anyone to go back to eating meat... begin with wisdom, live with greater wisdom each day.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by AndyT at 09/20/10 00:34:47

    > Why not just shoot yourself in the leg since it is better than shooting yourself in the head? Seemingly the lesser of two evils, right? Tell me how it goes...

    Hmm, sounds like a no-brainer to me - if I HAVE to shoot myself somewhere :-)

    I agree, let's stop pinning labels on people.

    To be honest, I am sorry today that it took me personally 20 years to move to the 'vegan' phase, from the moment I stopped eating meat. I wish that phase had been shorter.

    But what made me understand the evil of the dairy industry was friendly and calm information, in the form of Jonathan Safran Foer's book 'Eating animals'.

    I heard my share of 'Vegetarians are murderers' arguments in those 20 years, and I flat out refused to take people using those seriously, because they started IMO from a flawed starting point ('You are just as bad as people eating meat').

    So from that personal experience I would also advise to tread lightly in that matter.

    Best regards,

    (Minor typos corrected - HC Team)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/20/10 01:50:23

    Andy it took me a long time also.

    Flesh & eggs I left very easily as a teenager in the 70's H.G. Wells, George Harrison, Spike Milligan, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami & others convinced me fairly easily.

    What finally 'did it for me' was seriously reflecting on 'madness & responsibility' when I was still ingesting dairy & items stolen from bees.

    Every time that I drank milk, ate butter, ate ghee, ate yoghurt, ate cheese etc. I was clogging up my tubes plus plus ........& condoning male calves leading very, very short lives & then going to slaughter - plus milk cows being abused daily.

    Every time that I ate honey etc. I was giving myself a 'sugar hit' - plus I was responsible for killing many, many bees when I ingested pollen.

    Harry Mather, who started 'Vegan Views',( a back issue here - ) - personally pointed this out to me in Bournemouth, England in 1983 - it is a sad fact that I was too dense to follow through on his advice consistently for even more than 20 years.

    I was just as bad, if not worse, than people who ate meat. Why deny it? My dietary choices were leading to terrible daily animal suffering.

    I disagree with you & say that there is absolutely no reason to 'tread lightly' Andy.

    The whole bloody truth is always the best option.

    Telling people 'clearly' the effects of their actions is actually the kindest thing to do - both for them & for the animals.

    "The excuse that it is not necessary to kill in order to obtain dairy produce is untenable for those with a knowledge of livestock farming methods and of the competition which even humanitarian farmers must face if they are to remain in business." - written by Donald Watson in November of 1944 ( source - )
    Chinese Proverb

    "Dripping water pierces a stone; a saw made of rope cuts through wood."


    Drip, drip, drip...........

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    Posted by jive at 09/20/10 13:31:22

    Hi eric

    You say "Why not just stop with all the labels, stages, & phases?"

    While I agree people should go straight to veganism, phases are what make us what we are. One cannot become an adult without the childhood phase or the adolescent phase. Another word for phase might be evolution, as one cannot evolve from an ameba to a human being without many stages of evolution. The same is true of wisdom, one does not become wise without a lifetime of experiences (most of which are the bumps and burses that come with making the wrong choices in life)

    This does not mean that everyone needs to go through the vegetarianism phase to become vegan, but for most people, it is just yet another stage in their own personal evolution.

    Even if in one days time, you were able to convince a meat eater to go vegan, in their mind, they would still have to go through many stages of understanding, including: where meat really comes from, how cows are animals too just like doggies and horses, why its wrong to consume dairy and the conditions a dairy cow is forced to live in.

    I notice that for most vegans and vegetarians, the first phase was an unwillingness to eat baby cows (or veal as its called). I would call this a conscientious decision, and if I were to try to convince them to go vegan, I would start by saying that there are yet more conscientious decisions to be made. And that every cow as a baby at one point in time.

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    Posted by jive at 09/20/10 13:49:13

    It's far better to aid someone through the stages of their lives than it is to push them into something they are not ready for. Because if they fail, you are only alienating them to the very goal you are setting, and they probably wont have any interest in trying again.

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    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/20/10 19:41:33

    Crawling up the butts of milkies, cheesies, eggies & meaties to make them love you & want to giggle with you may be what you enjoy doing jive - it does not interest me.

    Focus on the suffering of the animals.

    Tell the truth instead of trying to become 'popular'.

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    Posted by AndyT at 09/20/10 23:33:03

    > I disagree with you & say that there is absolutely no reason to 'tread lightly' Andy.

    > The whole bloody truth is always the best option.


    So between the two of us (and all the others here in the forum) we should be able to convince the majority of meaters, cheesies and other strange people to see the light :-)

    And - as long as we keep it civilized, the discussion here helps other people to notice that there is obviously something wrong with consuming dairy products.

    Which brings me to another topic - being a missionary.

    All my life I was more of the conviction 'I have made my decision, but I do not want to impose my lifestyle on others' and tried to refrain from being 'a zealous missionary'. E.g., when in the cafeteria with co-workers, not to tell them the gruesome details of where their steak comes from. I find that stance increasingly difficult to uphold. So while I still claim to everybody not to be a missionary (sneaky me), I try to bring up the issue in a non-threatening way more and more often, e.g. getting people to read 'Eating animals' by Jonathan Safran Foer or similar.

    Best regards,

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/21/10 02:20:02

    Yep - this and - - have both gotten a little out of hand haven't they!

    A long, long time ago I used to buy cases of the book 'Light Eating for Survival' by Marcia Acciardo to pass out to any of my customers who had a real taste for excellent food.

    I read an interview with Mr Foer - I have yet to see the book.

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    Posted by jive at 09/22/10 14:33:07

    Nice post Johnny,

    I wonder though, is someone likely to listen to -the truth- from one they find preachy and annoying?

    Perhaps if I write down "vegan is the way to go" on a cardboard sign and shout it from the side of the road, people will listen to me. What do you think?

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 09/22/10 22:34:19

    Jive, you are clearly a fool. Provoking arguments to then turn and call the other preachy and annoying. You have nothing but shame all over you. People are intelligent, yourself not included, and are willing to listen to facts, objective, rational facts and truths, especially when they come to a resource seeking such objectivity. Your inane braying of phases and name-calling has contributed nothing but dissent for the sake of dissent (which I believe is one of Wiki's definitions of a troll) and trying to create your own mythology based upon animal abuses. Try the side of the road thing out for a while and write the results down in a little notepad and meditate on it. After 3 years, come back and tell us the results.

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    Posted by Gormo at 09/23/10 02:51:25

    (Removed by HC Team - only abusive content)

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    Posted by veggiesarah at 03/09/11 09:24:15

    I agree with Jimbomatic's first post, vegans and vegetarians should not have hatred for each other for the reason of chosen diets. Vegans might not agree with dairy and vegetarians might not see anything wrong with dairy but it is no reason to start up arguments.

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    Posted by JohnnySensible at 03/09/11 18:10:38

    "should" - that word always makes me smile!

    There is a lovely, lovely, lovely place that I know of Sarah.

    It is quite close to where you are.

    Like minded deeply neurotic people meet together there & tell each other that it is: -

    "perfectly OK"
    "so nice"
    "quite normal"

    - to torture cows & chickens & other creatures and to make 'food' from their eggs & milks etc.

    In public these folk grin incessantly - they dress impeccably well - they carry sweet little cloth napkins & remove any tiny pieces of egg which gets stuck to their chins, or any traces of milky mustaches almost immediately.

    As a group they are quite rich - veal, milk, egg producers etc. ensure that they are very well funded by paying to advertize in their publications & by generously sponsoring their events.

    Their sh!t really, really stinks badly but they 'counter' this with high quality deodorizing sprays in their bathroom areas.

    Here is their website -


    Karen Horney - on neurosis & "the tyranny of the shoulds".

    Excerpt - "So the neurotic swings back and forth between hating themselves and pretending to be perfect."

    From -

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Double Dare at 05/08/11 12:13:52

    I'm afraid that there are some vegans who behave like religious puritans and like to lecture others with evangelical zeal. These veganelists were usually themselves omnivorous in the past and possibly even lacto-vegetarian before they went the whole hog, as it were.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Brett NJ at 07/09/11 16:24:01

    I'm working toward full veganism, but I could make the same point I'm striving to here just as validly if I ate burgers at every meal, as the important theme of this thread has become common sense and decency, both of which are sorely lacking in some writers' posts.

    To get it out of the way, I agree that anything short of veganism is just that, short of the ideal in terms of human compassion for animals with respect to diet.

    That said, for anyone here who is disrespectful, hostile, pompous, self-righteous, etc., to those who fall short of this ideal simply because they do fall short, please note...

    Unless your existence has no negative impact on animal life at all (or, to be more reasonable, as (literally) absolutely as little as possible), your scoldings are as hypocritical as they are laughable. Unless nothing you buy, ingest (including medication), wear, do, travel upon, live in, etc., is 100% free of negative implication for any/all other life on this planet, then you open yourself up to the kind of self-aggrandizing criticism that I see being administered to others. You'd just need find an individual with even higher ideals and an equal lack of self awareness and humility to level it.

    One can't simply arbitrarily draw a line at the point of one's own comfort level in one category of behavior and criticize all those beneath it. Unless, among other things, you choose to live naked in the wilderness gathering naturally occurring plant sources of food (which competing animals themselves need to survive), and are also willing to die rather than ingest life-saving medication created at the expense of animals at a time when that choice must be made, all of the posturing here is completely unjustified, as you are, at best--not even necessarily, perhaps only less guilty of animal cruelty than those to which you preach--not guiltless.

    No one here is the arbiter of whose trangressions warrant their deserving respect. Everyone here deserves respect. Even those to whom I'm directing this.

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    Posted by kindlizard at 07/12/11 22:24:09

    Still amazed how folks come to a vegan site to argue against it. It is not a matter of ego, it is rather selfless. Your selfish actions are what's contrary.

    Brett, when you say "working" towards veganism, it sounds like you recognize it as the "right" thing to do. Why "work" at it and just stop buying cheese, dairy and eggs? Why not just go through the fridge, toss the remnants and stop buying it? Easy as that. It is not a "work", or if you need to see it as such, I just gave you the assignment. I know you likely mean well, and are not trying to write on a vegan website that you condone animal torture, but you just did. Or do you use it as an excuse that you don't like someone's tone on some random website as the reason why you don't stop this silly torture?

    Challenge: buy daiya next time you want cheese; applesauce or tofu (depending on usage) next time for eggs; soy or nut milk and creamer; click on the shop tab at the heading here and buy a few vegan cookbooks, or check the recipe section also atop the heading here. You can also pm me, use me as a resource.

    We all give a damn and your post really belittles what we have spent a lot of hours to accomplish. This last part is not just directed at you but to all those who try to condone animal cruelty in the guise of vegetarianism. I say this to you to encourage you to think more deeply, not to play devil's advocate, and to DO the right thing. Your post made this site that much dumber, and I for one object sincerely. You contrive and rationalize situations that don't matter in order to try to prove a senseless point, without stepping in what you already acknowledge as the right direction. It serves no one except yourself, selfishly. Here's hoping your future posts are more thoughtful and intelligent.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Brett NJ at 07/13/11 11:06:38

    In considering whether to respond to your post, KL, I have to evaluate whether I think it will be productive or simply degrade into something purely negative.

    Since logical communication comes with (logical) rules to which you did not adhere, it seems like an exercise in frustration to make the attempt.

    But, to try to make this work, if you can respond to my post logically, I'm willing to make the effort. That would involve:

    1) not trying to convince (maybe yourself and) others that I wrote something that I clearly did not (saying I argued against veganism).

    2) not ignoring the bulk of the content of my post--that which proves my point (the fact that you take no responsibility for non-diet related aspects of your own animal exploitation while pushing others to rise to your arbitrarily chosen level of compassionate behavior).

    3) acknowledging that you have no right to tell anyone here how to live, both in general and with regard to your own hypocrisy (See 2.).

    and mostly:

    4)acknowledging and respecting that my post and therefore this exchange is not about veganism. I know and respect your opinion there and, at least within this exchange, don't want or need to hear any more about it either in general or with respect to my choices.

    My post concerns the way that a few here treat other members. If you want to try to divert it to another topic as you did in your first response (my dietary choices), then there's no communcation happening and the exchange will be pointless.

    These are not arbitrary guidelines that I created to suit my needs. They're logical requirements necessary to communicate productively.

    Though I realize that I am succumbing to your maneuvering by doing so, the fact that I wasted my time repeating aspects of my first post here shows that I'm willing to make an effort.

    If you are as well, then we can have a conversation.

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    Posted by jive at 07/13/11 16:52:16

    Brett NJ I for one find your reasoning to be both meaningful and refreshing. Thank you for posting.

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    Posted by kindlizard at 07/13/11 19:55:56

    This website is about veganism, so should your posts. Your lead sentence is about working toward veganism. You just want to talk about hurt feelings and how rude vegans are rather than look at the actual real life hurt you cause animals by exploiting them, keeping them caged, attached to machines, until you send them to slaughter. You are ridiculous for trying to change the topic of how car windshields or whatever kill bugs, that is a conversation that goes nowhere. You signed up on this site this week, yet you are the expert on what deserves to be shared here? Get lost, in fact, you and jive are likely one and the same trying to derail meaningful dialog many of us have to those seeking guidance in this very real and very sincere matter. All you do is make folks feel it is avoidable and you can rationalize hurting animals so why bother. You are a defeatist and there is no room for that here. Shoo detractor!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Brett NJ at 07/13/11 21:36:28

    I came to this site to discuss veganism, but what I immediately saw here is that this is not a place for legitimate discussion of any topic, thanks in large part to you.

    What you not at all surprisingly are leaving out when you try to (again) divert the discussion from the topic of my posts--the inappropriate behavior exhibited on this site--is that a forum such as this one is or at least should be about an HONEST, LOGICAL, AND RESPECTFUL discussion of its topic, whatever that might be. Without that, the topic itself doesn't even matter, which is why I've yet to engage in it.

    That said, nothing about your responses to my posts indicates that you are in any way capable of exercising any of those necessary attributes. Rather, you consistently and extremely clumsily engage in blatant attempts at evasion, diversion, dishonesty, hypocrisy, manipulation, condescension, delusions of authority and grandiosity, and, most embarrassingly, if not the most transgressive, inane melodramatic outbursts ("Shoo detractor.").

    You accept responsibility for nothing, most significantly and jarringly your own offenses against animals, and hold yourself to no standards of behavior in your interactions. You ignore anything that nullifies or even threatens your arguments in favor of merely indulging your seemingly obsessive need to repetitively pontificate and proselytize.

    And these are merely the objective observations.

    Despite all of this, I was and remain willing to engage in an honest and honestly rendered conversation with you. I would love to be proven wrong and see that you are capable of it.

    I'll start by breaking down my last post, making it simpler, by asking you to paste the portion of my original post which you claim argues against veganism. Or you can acknowledge that you fabricated that claim and that the content does not exist.

    I look forward to your response.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Brett NJ at 07/13/11 21:46:29

    And to Jive, I appreciate you taking the time to post your comment.

    It's tough deciding whether or not to devote time and effort to engaging a situation like this, especially since I just stumbled upon it.

    But what's happening here is nothing more than ridiculous, childish bullying, and since I know I have a bit of skill at deconstructing nonsense, I'd have felt remiss had I not interjected.

    Thanks again.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 07/14/11 01:08:30

    you trolls stick together. meanwhile, I know as FACT I have helped folks transition with actual dialog to healthier more compassionate lifestyles. I have people on here thank me for helping them transition; the animals don't have to thank me. You? What have you done? Contributed? NOTHING! except of course coming around and trying to take this site off course with your anti-vegan agenda ~ you and jive have a lot in common. You only signed up to start a pissing contest with the tried and true actually care deeply and make a real impact, not just some semantic rant about nothingness and baseless accusations.

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    Posted by jive at 07/14/11 02:12:02

    Take it easy kindlizard. It is difficult to have a rational discussion with someone whose persistently calling you a troll and an anti-vegan, and an uncontributor, etc.

    Maybe you should start by explaining what you do to help people in their transition. You make it sound as though you have a positive approach to guiding interested persons into veganism, so lets hear how you do it.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Brett NJ at 07/14/11 08:31:23

    Well, KL, I gave you the benefit of every doubt and offered you every opportunity to engage in rational communication. And you, backed into a corner of your own making (and presumably an adult?) desperately add name calling to your repertoire as you retreat.

    To whatever extent you have constructively offered aid to anyone here, I give you credit, but from what I've seen of your entries, your behavior is epically infantile and destructive.

    And I'm guessing--only guessing--that you've caused far more individuals to pass this site by than you've engaged--not because they take issue with veganism (which you seem pathologically unwilling to accept), but because they want no part of your self-righteous and mad dictatorial style rantings.

    I assume we're done with this exchange. Despite my observations, I wish only good things for you.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 07/14/11 09:05:22

    Celebrating 5 days of 'Ambassador Brett from NJ' playing on HappyCow.

    Lovely stuff!

    "Everyone here deserves respect."

    You have been throwing sh&t from your first post - exhibiting only big disrespect.

    Who 'trained' you Brett? -

    - it is obvious that you didn't graduate at the top of your class.
    jive - turn on your 'discrimination switch'!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Brett NJ at 07/14/11 09:35:00

    Having reviewed your posts in this thread when I first joined, JS, I anticipated your response.

    Despite its brevity, in it, you, a moderator no less, manage to engage in name calling, sarcasm, vulgarity, completely baseless and incorrect assumptions, and a lack of understanding of the difference between disrespect and (albeit difficult to receive but) legitimate, fully supported, and extremely contextually warranted criticism.

    In forwarding your links, you also reveal that you experience the same extremely disturbing pathology in which you believe that anyone who disagrees with you about anything disagrees with veganism.

    Past that, I'll simply refer you to the comments I've already made, as most seem to apply to you as well.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 07/14/11 09:49:51

    More long words & accusations Brett - well done.
    BTW folks - I am not really a 'Moderator' here. All real power lies with Eric the Webmaster. My posts also get trashed whenever he seems to want to feel powerful / move deeper into comfort zones.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Brett NJ at 07/14/11 10:47:58

    More sarcasm.

    And I am not making accusations but observations which, again, are validated by your own words.

    Though I could be wrong, I'm assuming that your posts are being "trashed" because you choose not to communicate rationally, respectfully. And judging by those that remain, I can only imagine the kind of content that gets deleted.

    Surely if you displayed the types of behavior I see in your posts here in any of the few forums of which I'm a part, trust the behaviors--not your freedom to post--would be ended immediately or you'd, very deservedly and appropriately, be removed from the site.

    It's unfortunate for all involved that you didn't learn common sense and simple respect--for yourself and others--at some point during your life. I hope it still comes to you somehow.

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    Posted by webmaster at 07/14/11 14:36:37

    Now that you've all expressed your point of view, let's move on. Thank you for sharing.

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