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Vegan / Vegetarian Discussion - All Things Veg*n Forum

I was brought up lacto-veggy, but I've been re-assessing my beliefs.

I don't see any arguments against eating eggs for someone who eats dairy.

I can't hold onto beliefs that I can't justify- however much I might want to. Gut instincts just aren't enough.

Any information or help would be really...helpful
:-)

Responses (98)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by roar at 11/04/07 11:11:20

    Ok, I've been watching this thread long enough....

    Kamarnut... You think you NEED milk? Hmm... I don't know but I'm guessing you are over the age of 2 or 3 years of age.
    I'm not "lactose intolerant"... not that I know of... But I don't drink it. I don't eat anything made of it. Hmm... I don't really take suppliments either... other than a couple things here and there but definitely no quantity higher than the average carnivour... Yeah meat eating people take suppliments too...
    Here are some fun facts about milk... Enjoy:)
    meow
    What the milk industry doesn't want you to know about is the long list of problems related to milk. Here is a short list:

    · milk encourages mucus and catarrh

    (it doesn't produce it)
    · pasteurised milk can aggravate candidiasis if you have it (many people do but do not know it)
    · the process of pasteurising milk destroys 50% of Vitamin C
    · juvenile insulin dependent diabetes is higher in high milk consumption cultures
    · it is the main cause of infant colic and of allergies in infants to adults
    · higher incidences of ovarian cancer as well other cancers (such as lymphatic and lung cancers)
    · excessive dairy consumption can cause you to loose calcium through the urine and hence actually cause osteoporosis
    · Because of the high protein found in dairy products, excessive consumption can actually interfere with calcium absorption. This excess protein is a major cause of the osteoporosis riddle.
    · osteoporosis is not caused by lack of calcium but by LOSS of calcium
    · a 30 year Scandinavian study showed an indisputable link between milk and arthritis



    Milk contributes to poor liver function

    And the list goes on. Excessive milk product consumption contributes to a sluggish liver which, amongst a plethora of problems such as inability to loose weight, build up of toxins in the body, will interfere with the conversion of Vitamin D.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/22/07 01:44:42

    Ha,

    Is this a serious post?

    Here is an "over the top" reply.

    "someone who eats dairy" is going to be so tripped out on antibiotics / growth hormones / cow adrenalin / mastitis pus / prions etc., etc. that they should have no problem whatsoever in eating eggs / placenta's / "road kill".........

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kamarnut at 10/24/07 15:50:14

    Yes, people this uninformed really exist.
    Thanks for the note of disgust.
    Do you know where I get my milk from?
    I am asking on a level of nutrition concerning the pure natural produce. There is vegan food pumped full of chemicals too, but that wasn't the question I was asking.

    On a completely seperate point can I ask- can we realistically base our diet on a 'logical' moral structure, or should we base it upon what nature intended? As a silly hyperthetical situation- if tigers had become the dominant sentient species on the planet should they continue eating meat?

    And why is it we can't survive healthily without either meat, eggs, or dairy naturally, without supplements?
    Does this mean that we should base our morals upon nature, not logic?

  • Gorgeous's avatar
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    Posted by Gorgeous at 10/25/07 01:28:16

    I get my milk by crawling under lady cows! - sometimes I get really dirty & it hurts like hell when they tread on me!

    Supplements - as a vegan I need no supplements whatsoever - for comfort I do sometimes suck my right thumb in bed.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/25/07 02:31:55

    i am a psychic & I can freely access the "Akashic Records" - I have "old memories" of eating an unfertilized free range Pterodactyl egg once when I was drunk on some home-brewed fruit wine - the egg gave me terrible, terrible gas - after that I only ate fruits & veggies - my favorite fruit in that life was one very similar to durian - we called it "Stegosaurus fruit".

    Supplements - I took some B12 a few years ago - now I have very short hair.

    Written by JohnnySensible - mostly veg*n for 108 lifetimes!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by paragonx at 10/25/07 06:29:05

    kamarnut -

    "And why is it we can't survive healthily without either meat, eggs, or dairy naturally, without supplements?
    Does this mean that we should base our morals upon nature, not logic?"


    I have wondered about this as well and struggle with how to handle it.

    As for the rest of you - i think this is an interesting topic and i don't understand the need to make fun of it. This person has come here for help not to be made an ass out of.

  • Gorgeous's avatar
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    Posted by Gorgeous at 10/25/07 10:20:26

    Sooooo deep!

    I suggest that you ask the FDA / any other crazy group with similar beliefs to yourselves - bye guys! - stop wasting our time here.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by paragonx at 10/25/07 13:30:45

    gorgeous - I personally am not trying to waste anyone's time.

    This is a serious issue to me. I do the best that i can to eat cruelty free. I am just trying to find a way to understand what the human body needs to survive naturally.

    I think B12 deficiency is a serious thing. My personal quest is to get B12 with out taking an unnatural supplement and not eating meat, dairy, eggs or fish.

    The way you are slamming us is unjust and has the potential to scare off new contributing members.

    Why so hostile? I don't think it is necessary.
    :/

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by webmaster at 10/25/07 14:38:22

    Hi Kamarnut,

    I think that it's great that you are "re-assessing" your beliefs. That's something that I feel a need to do constantly in life to "keep it real" and stay with what is deeply true for me. In regards to questioning why not to eat eggs (even if they were free-range & organic) it always comes back to my intuition that my body doesn't need them. Additionally, when tracing the egg back to it's source - inside a chicken and a potential life (unfertilized potential) it's also a significant reason alone to me for not eating them. Yet this kind of understanding is not for everyone. If you grew up on a farm it might be very natural for you to eat eggs. As for "scientific reasons", maybe someone else has some answers, I'm not a nutritionist.
    Good luck in your choices.
    -eric- webmaster

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/25/07 21:41:55

    Webmaster Eric is a compassionate guy! - I am not.

    Stay "logical" paragonx & kamarnut - enjoy your eggs!

    I grew up close to farms - I eat dirt sometimes.

    "Geophagic & proud of it" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geophagy

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by paragonx at 10/26/07 07:13:06

    johnnysensible - You enjoy your eggs as well.




  • Stig's avatar
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    Posted by Stig at 10/26/07 21:23:28

    "And why is it we can't survive healthily without either meat, eggs, or dairy naturally, without supplements?
    Does this mean that we should base our morals upon nature, not logic?"

    What absolute nonsense from kamarnut!

    In spite of your protestations you are "transparent" paragonx.

    Get a life guys!

    Pick up litter. Help old folk to cross the streets.

    "Vegan-baiting" ain't such a constructive use of time!


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by roar at 11/04/07 11:22:59

    and to continue what I was saying, as those were just a few things, I really have no qualms with Jonnysensible's sarcastic approach or anyone's approach. To come to a primarily vegan forum and argue what one believes to be the benefits of dairy/eggs and NOT get a variety of response would be cynical in of itself.
    You play you pay.
    So here I am, thinking about the comment about the baby cows not becoming veal but rather, studs. And I'm like... yeah... for?....
    An unnecessary product. And I too would like to know where this farm is... maybe they could instead use their space to broaden farm animal sanctuaries.
    I could be jaded because I have always felt that milk was absolutely discusting, will admit to being a vegetarian once who ate cheese bought at Trader Joes or Wild Oats and other "natural food stores". I used to justify eating honey from local bee keepers too. I used to think cage free eggs were good.
    Until I realized that in order to keep consistant with my stand on animal rights and truly what my body needs in order to survive I needed to take what I was educated on and live by it. And yes I've taken college classes on nutrician and the vegan diet, across the board, when followed and done correctly, is the healthiest out there.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kamarnut at 10/27/07 21:49:44

    This is not 'vegan-baiting'.
    Maybe what I say is nonesense, but could you tell me why, because that's why I'm here.
    How do you get everything that I get from dairy without eating dairy?

    Oh, and Jonnysensible, why all the sarcastic criticisms and stuff? It says in your profile that you were a lacto-veggy at one point.

    It sadly seems to me that you'd have to have taken a degree in nutrition to have a clear stance to the subject, because there are so many arguments being fired from both sides that are all so way over my head and scientific.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/28/07 02:33:38

    Hi kamarnut.

    Yes - what you say is nonsense to me.

    I quote you - "And why is it we can't survive healthily without either meat, eggs, or dairy naturally, without supplements?"

    This is your clear statement pretty poorly disguised as a question - so I now know your position - nothing is "over my head".

    Be selective kamarnut - select the "arguments" that keep you in your milky comfort zones.

    Here are 5 "arguments" which I have selected for you - no "degree" is required to understand any of them -

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoIY47pJs6k

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm_nldBNIWg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkFiU_iyq84

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM8h7Yc3zfc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sljKTwEY7j0

    Personally I do not want whatever you "get from dairy" inside my body.




  • Stig's avatar
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    Posted by Stig at 10/28/07 02:56:56

    I see nothing even 1% sarcastic in the posts of johnnysensible!

    Milk sucks period!

    Seeing those clips bring back some funny memories - bad breath, bad body odour & boils.

    Nestle is a criminal organization!

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HtDCC_aPFg

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/28/07 03:20:15

    Thank you Stig.

    Cote D'Ivoire (Ivory Coast) is a hard country.

    I am working with small-scale precious metals mining projects in an area a days journey north of Abidjan.

    We are systematically working to build up some "Fair Trade" agri-businesses also.

    Many obstacles - progress is painfully slow.

    Here is an eye-opener - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSBXSXAxVOU

    Abuse of humans is the natural progression / natural partner of the abuse of animals.

    Yes I was cruelly "lacto-vegetarian" for some time - a fact that I am not proud of.

    Drinking factory farmed milk is a criminal act - regardless of which country you are in.

  • vesalius123's avatar
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    Posted by vesalius123 at 10/28/07 07:21:13

    Actually if bought from small ethical farms there is no reason to cut out dairy from your diet. Eggs, If unfertilized they are causing no harm to the chicken or the chickens babies and in the wild would have rotted. Milk, If bought from a small farm and is raw is generally taken after the calf is finished and If it is a small ethical farm the male calves will not be sold for veal but will be made into studs. But not all little farms are like this and if you want to be an ethical vegetarian you need to do more research into the farm's background.

  • vesalius123's avatar
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    Posted by vesalius123 at 10/28/07 07:24:09

    johnnysensible. Kamarnut is right. Your sarcasm discredits anything you have to say that is of any value.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kamarnut at 10/28/07 10:00:13

    jonnysensible- I'm glad that you say nothing is 'over your head'. So maybe you can help me to understand instead of attacking my ignorance.
    "select the "arguments" that keep you in your milky zones."
    Actually I would rather select the arguments that are right. Or is this sarcasm again?
    I watched your 5 youtube videos and don't understand how milkybar-kid adverts relate to this discussion.

    Vesalius123, I agree about the ethicality, or at least potential ethicality of free-range eggs and dairy. For instance Hare Krishna drink milk and eat dairy and they worship the cow as sacred.
    However, I'm still uncertain about the basic nutritional composition of eggs. I thought that they begin to putrify in the digestive system like meat and release toxins etc into the bloodstream whereas milk doesn't.
    I don't get why eggs are grouped in with dairy.

    To jonnysensible about chocolate labour.
    I didn't watch the entire clip, but it seems self-evident to me that whether it's chocolate, bananas, coffee, cotton, or whatever else; any profiteering industry will separate the producers from the consumers, and suffering will become merely a by-product of increased profits. The producers will suffer. The consumers remain ignorant. The only sure, but in most cases unrealistic way of avoiding this is to consume products that are produced locally.

    Anyway, that was kind of a tangent, I'd like to get to the bottom of this whole egg-dairy thing.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by pekmez at 10/28/07 16:50:42

    Yes there are slave children working to get us those chocolate, with no health care, money or education, with lot of CRUELTY and they have never even tasted choclate.
    All the eggs you get from chicken arent for baby chickens, just once a year the chicken will warm her eggs to get baby chickens. Anyway thats what my mother taled me today, that I didnt know. But Im still not for eathing eggs.

    Kamarnut you have some advice that I and rest of us gave on this forum in other recent topics about getting what you need from milk and eggs, you need nothing from meat, everything there you can find plenty in other stuff, without killing or harming anybody. I hope you didnt give up on this forum. Bye.

  • Stig's avatar
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    Posted by Stig at 10/28/07 23:00:47

    Hi vesalius123,

    Can you get away from your attachment to "farming" animals?

    For my diet animals do not need to be "owned" / "farmed" / "abused".

    I do not know of any farms in the US / Europe / most other places where animals are allowed to live until they die of old age.

    You may find it easy to criticize johnnysensible, hwoever your arguments collapse as they are based on animal abuse by your "small" farms.

    Farms which kill animals for whatever reason cannot be called "small ethical....".

    The "Hare Krishna's" whom I know kamarnut are all living in heavy denial - their teacher / Guruji told them very to raise & protect cows if they wanted to consume milk products - instead they buy their dairy products in Walmart & believe that they can cancel out the "karma" by chanting mantra's.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/29/07 01:12:30

    Hi vesalius123 -

    The fire is getting hot.........

    Yes I do have a bad sense of humor!

    So you "discredit" me - very good.

    I note that you consider it perfectly OK to own, farm & trade animals so being "credited" by you is not so high on my list of priorities.

    "male calves will not be sold for veal but will be made into studs" - are you smoking something funny? - how come only you know about this "Garden of Eden"? - I really need to know where it is - I will work to support it - please reveal all on "HappyCow".

    It really is time to "come out" - please name 3 of these "small ethical farms" - or even just name 1 & tell me that you have proof that they do not kill animals - or sell / give away "surplus" animals for others to kill.

    What is the saying in the US? - "put up or shut up".


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/29/07 01:28:59

    Hi kamarnut -

    I think that you are being silly & having a laugh - I appreciate that - I do not think that you are ignorant.

    You do display the classic symptoms of a milk addict.

    "help me to understand" - come on! - that is not the goal of this exchange.

    FYI the main "Hare Krishna" ISKCON Group do have several dairy farms - some dating back to the late 60's.

    Wanting "more milk" they bred the cows much too frequently & ran out of land on which to keep the males.

    They have a dark history of "giving away" many of the male calves without asking too many questions about how long it will be before they become meat & leather jackers.

    Short of getting their own country their "solution" is to stop breeding the cows, allow them to grow old gracefully & go veg*n - http://www.iscowp.org/Nuggets/Over%20Breeding.htm

    Q) How do I know this?

    A) I used to study with the group & I still know several of the Members.


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kamarnut at 10/29/07 07:07:59

    jonnysensible, why won't you take me seriously? I have better things to do than 'have a laugh' by 'baiting vegans' or 'talking nonsense'.

    My point with the Hare Krishna is that it is conceivable to produce ethical dairy in a localised area. It's sad that the Hare Krishna slipped up, but that doesn't discredit the validity of their supposed principles.

    This is the first proper forum I've been to. Tell me- are all forums this useless; where you get given an incessant stream of sarcasm, insults, and unjustified opinions?

    I feel I have submitted several interesting questions and received precious few answers in response, most of them things like 'just my personal belief' (which is fine, but not very useful to me)

    To jonnysensible- If my questions are so ignorant and simple-minded then they won't be difficult to answer. If you continue to ignore them I can only begin to assume that you don't know any more than I do.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/29/07 09:37:00

    kamarnut you write - "I feel I have submitted several interesting questions ".

    Let me isolate them -

    1) "Do you know where I get my milk from?"

    2) "Oh, and Jonnysensible, why all the sarcastic criticisms and stuff?"

    3) "On a completely seperate point can I ask - can we realistically base our diet on a 'logical' moral structure, or should we base it upon what nature intended? meat?"

    4)"As a silly hyperthetical situation- if tigers had become the dominant sentient species on the planet should they continue eating?"

    5)"And why is it we can't survive healthily without either meat, eggs, or dairy naturally, without supplements?"

    6) "Does this mean that we should base our morals upon nature, not logic?"

    7)"How do you get everything that I get from dairy without eating dairy?"

    8) "jonnysensible, why won't you take me seriously?"

    --------------------------------------------

    I have looked at all 8 of them with care - to me they are not at all interesting - perhaps other folk will be "riveted" by them & will take time to reply to you / help you.

    You may like to browse - Robert Cohen's - http://www.notmilk.com/ & the PETA site - http://www.milksucks.com/

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by paragonx at 10/29/07 12:10:48

    kamarnut -

    This forum seems to have some very educated people that can help you with your questions.

    www.veganforum.com

    They



  • Gorgeous's avatar
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    Posted by Gorgeous at 10/29/07 21:48:21

    Great suggestion!

    Try www.care2.com also - you can chat to your hearts content there about why you like to consume milk & why you are considering eating eggs - the site also hosts lovely AD's for fish oil products & in the shopping pages you can even find fur products.

    HappyCow is a site where veg*n businesses are very actively promoted - thus reducing animal abuse.

    Bye guys!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kamarnut at 10/30/07 06:55:56

    jonnysensible-
    "to me [your questions] are not at all interesting"
    Then why bother to post?

    As you have given no substantiated answers for your beliefs up to this point I will assume you have none.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kamarnut at 10/30/07 06:56:48

    Despite that, during this period I have done my own research and found:

    -That it is conceivable to ethically produce small quantities of dairy and eggs.

    -That because dairy is an almost complete food designed for growing creaures it should be had in equally small amounts.

    -That nutritionally speaking eggs share enough negative similarities with meat for me to continue avoiding them for health benefits.

    -That I should try to purchase more products locally in order to reduce the gap between consumer and producer.

    -That there are an awful lot more important issues than whether I eat a few eggs or not.
    (i.e. third world countries that have NO food, etc)


    Thanks for the link paragonx :-)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by dirtandskirts at 10/30/07 11:40:41

    kamarnut,

    Sorry to see all the nasty vegans on here. It is exactly that type of vegan that kept me actively disinterested in learning more about why they do what they do, and probably forestalled my own transition to veganism. I finally met some sane ones, learned the information in a non-argumentative way, and took it to heart.

    I would like to respond seriously to a few points that have been brought up before I go off on that tangent, though.

    "On a completely seperate point can I ask- can we realistically base our diet on a 'logical' moral structure, or should we base it upon what nature intended?"

    We are so far beyond what nature intended, on so many levels. I don't believe nature "intended" for us to be living in houses and raping the land for oil etc. and flying planes and enslaving/using/farming animals for our own purposes -- on some points I am willing to be unnatural, though, of course. If you believe in blood-type theory, there are in fact some people who, nature dictates, should be near-vegans. We *can* base our diet on a logical moral structure, and what's more, as the only ones around *capable* of making moral decisions, we have a responsibility to do so.

    "As a silly hyperthetical situation- if tigers had become the dominant sentient species on the planet should they continue eating meat?"

    If tigers didn't develop moral capacity, then probably.

    "And why is it we can't survive healthily without either meat, eggs, or dairy naturally, without supplements?"

    This is, to me, one of the areas where food gets fascinating. The only thing that may not be available in a vegan diet that we do need is our infamous friend B12. And people disagree on this, because our bodies (in the right circumstances) can produce it -- the (main) question is whether that's enough. For me, this is where the "naturally" argument has its most frustrating fault. Animals are not the source of B12. Bacteria are, and those bacteria come from the land, not the animals. And before we decided to have these huge sterile farms and overclean all our vegetables (thus not exempting organics, either), we got this from the dirt, too (or rather the organisms living in the dirt). If we were truly living naturally, food-wise, and being true stewards of the land, and not needing everything to be Clean, we would get B12 from our plants as well. But unless you're homesteading, chances are you've given up some of these truly-natural food benefits, and it's important to remember that.

    What's more, we may not absorb it all that great, but we store B12 very very well. At any one time, you might have several years' worth of B12 in your body. I am fine with occasionally popping a B12 tablet where the B12 came straight from the bacteria, but if you're really not, find someone who has chickens and does not raise them for profit. Eat an egg every once in a while. But don't buy them. There is no law stating what can be called "free-range," and some of the most egregious animal abuses in the animal agribusiness industry occur with chickens -- both those raised for their flesh as well as those raised for eggs. If I remember correctly, "animal welfare" laws meant to apply to animal-slaughter businesses don't apply to poultry. I would be glad to talk further about this if you'd like, but it's a huge issue.

    It's worth noting that a lot of alternative-medicine doctors speak out strongly against cow milk (on health reasons, oftentimes even more strongly than meat, believe it or not). It's designed for baby cows, and it's designed to make them grow large quickly. (Human milk is largely for brain development; we don't have the same need to grow so big so fast.) What's more, the dairy lobby is incredibly strong, and they've made up a lot of things that just aren't true. Does milk have a lot of calcium? Sure. Do we absorb it well? No. Does milk have a lot of protein? Yeah. But animal protein also contributes to an acid environment within the body, which the body tries to fix by balancing it with a base. Unfortunately this base is your bones, and consuming animal products will leach minerals out of your bones. The nations with the highest rates of dairy consumption have the highest rates of osteoporosis.

    "any profiteering industry will separate the producers from the consumers, and suffering will become merely a by-product of increased profits. The producers will suffer."

    A big hell-yes to purchasing things locally. And I agree with you totally on this point. But please keep in mind that the producers, in the case of animal foods, are sentient beings. They suffer, too.

    And last but not least, there are absolutely a lot more important issues going on in the world. However!, your deciding to care about animal issues at home and in the world at large does not preclude you from caring about and taking positive action for other issues (quite the contrary, in my experience). "Vegan Freak" by Bob and Jenna Torres has an excellent explanation of why this is not relevant in one of the first chapters (I also highly recommend their podcast by the same name -- I disagree with plenty they say but it's highly entertaining and full of good info).

    I really apologize if I came across as a jerk at all; my goal was to explain some of my ideas and things I've learned. If you do eventually decide that you're really interested in becoming vegan, check out the veganfreak forums. There are a lot of people over there who love to help people out with the informational and the practical side of things.

    peace,
    Liene

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/30/07 13:41:34

    Liene,

    A very fine posting.

    Do not "hold back" - please post regularly.

    Nasty - OK I accept the label as I no longer have any patience when posts such as karmanut's appear.


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by paragonx at 10/30/07 14:37:17

    dirtandskirts - A very sincere thank you!


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by pekmez at 10/30/07 20:07:41

    Kamarnut to get into it, I dont think its wise to fight here about veganism, Im suprised how agressive people can be vegan whom are here. Go to topic "I need some help" in this forum on vegeterian topic - thats this one.

    To say there is more important issuess to talk about then are you gonna eat some eggs is pure way of thinking somebody always tellS you to stop your progress, in those countries where theres no food somebody is stoping progres and there is a small thing you can do or do it all if you think and get into it, for sure, but to say there is bigger issues then mine you are just stoping the basic little things YOU CAN DO. Im mean you can do big things too.

    WOW DIRTANDSKIRT - Liene WHAT A POST. Thank you for those answers, what a helpfull thing about eggs, free range, tablets and everything, about milk. You have made my life.

  • Gorgeous's avatar
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    Posted by Gorgeous at 10/30/07 20:52:09

    Liene,

    You write really clearly & with positivity / passion.

    Please consider developing your postings into articles for HappyCow to post on the "info pages".

    Yes - I am one of the "nasty ones" for sure - with "zero tolerance" of lacto's.

    I hate to even see milk in stores - it is a "bye-product" of torture / murder & whether it is produced on "little farms" or industrial scale farms the cows suffer terribly.

    HappyCow works to reduce cow abuse by promoting veg*n businesses & that is why I am here participating.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by pekmez at 10/30/07 20:58:17

    Liene, how old are you and what is your job? Cause you look so young. Im mean everybody can know so much if they want to, like I know in other areas cause im new in this one. I am amased how a little girl can think so clearly, logically and inteligently and with so pure natures knowledge - im mean i think the same. Well done, you have made youreself or have been made into a wonderfull HUMAN BEING. Congratulations!

    By the way the tablet of B12 is called what? And can you tell me how naturally or sinthetically is it? Thank you, my dear dear child.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by pekmez at 10/30/07 21:01:39

    I can almost say you have been given ticket to Heaven (heaven), but I am not allowed to say something like that, am I. I am not.

  • Stig's avatar
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    Posted by Stig at 10/30/07 21:09:16

    Just wonderful Liene, as I was reading your post the replies from gorgeous & pekmez popped up on my screen.

    I am a nasty old veg*n - battle scarred - it makes me happy so see that our "playing" with kamarnut & his "pro-milk premise" led to you posting your response.

    As a child this biblical quote was on my breakfast table every day - 'Out of the strong came forth sweetness' - courtesy of Abram Lyle.

  • Stig's avatar
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    Posted by Stig at 10/30/07 21:13:45

    Hey pekmez,

    Your words are lovely - I get the meaning - well said!

    The goal of all of this for me is that fewer cows are raped & tortured & murdered.

    Stig Nasty!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by pekmez at 10/30/07 21:30:31

    Thank you Stig very much, is allways nice to hear something like that about yourself, but you seem to get it to the core of me and understanding what I said. Thank God for you too.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by pekmez at 10/30/07 21:36:05

    Should we stop eating cocoa, like we stop eathing meat, milk, eggs and honey. Cause there is so much cruelty there too and it is done to our own SPECIE. There is a lot of cocoa-cruelty free products, some compaies have signed, the biggest didnt. And some children have been free and are educationgthemselfs, some are still cutting the cocoa.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by pekmez at 10/30/07 21:37:14

    that was the question to you people with ? on the end.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by pekmez at 10/30/07 22:11:47

    Should I say what happened in are parlament the other day. Shut your ears first. One women in parlament said to a man in parlament (wich was broadcast on tv and in the news): "he kills dogs around his town and put the meat in burgers in his restaurants". And the guy said: "You didnt have trouble to eat it so many times and to come again". Lady is fat by the way, wich has no real sugnificent. Both have been punished for hurting by words each other, actually i think the man was, cause i heard both and there is no reason she should be punished. There you go, I thought this has relevance with what we are talking here, to give you a sense of what state are we in in Serbia, or the state of those two people. You can still eat vegan here, and the town is not capital, its smaller town Valjevo, wich doesnt make much diference what town is it. Dont let me go analising what is more wrong with what he said.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/30/07 23:47:07

    Interesting answers to interesting questions contd.....

    Question by kamarnut - "And why is it we can't survive healthily without either meat, eggs, or dairy naturally, without supplements?

    Does this mean that we should base our morals upon nature, not logic?"

    Answered by experts here -

    http://www.theage.com.au/news/diet/vegetarian-diet-is-nuts/2007/10/27/1193555572645.html

    This study was funded by Meat and Livestock Australia........www.mla.com.au

    "A healthy reminder on the nutritional benefits of eating red meat

    A recent report into the role of red meat in healthy Australian diets, reinforces the importance of red meat as part of a healthy balanced diet and reaffirms the Australian Dietary Guidelines recommendation that consumers eat lean red meat 3-4 times a week.

    The report by 16 leading nutrition experts outlines that lean red meat delivers a bundle of necessary nutrients including iron and zinc in forms that are well absorbed by the body, along with vitamin B12 and long-chain omega-3s, two nutrients found naturally in only a limited number of foods."

    Sooooooooooooooo neutral!

    Now stand please whist we sing -

    "Advance Australia Fair"

    Australians all let us rejoice
    For we are young and free
    We've golden soil and wealth for toil,
    Our home is girt by sea:
    Our land abounds in nature's gifts
    Of beauty rich and rare,
    In history's page let every stage
    Advance Australia fair,
    In joyful strains then let us sing
    Advance Australia fair.

    Beneath our radiant Southern Cross,
    We'll toil with hearts and hands,
    To make this Commonwealth of ours
    Renowned of all the lands,
    For those who've come across the seas
    We've boundless plains to share,
    With courage let us all combine
    To advance Australia fair.
    In joyful strains then let us sing,
    Advance Australia fair.

    ---------------------------------------------


    So at last kamarnut is vindicated! - I am converted - I say "juice & kill more cows"! - johnny-nasty

    (OK - confession time - I am jesting - this is my first ever descent into really dark sarcasm on this forum!)





  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/31/07 08:05:52

    Ha, ha


    http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2007/10/emw565023.htm

    Googling - "VEGAN"

    The Google Press office, who refuse to comment on the rise in interest in veganism on the web for the World Vegan Day Press release, said today "we prefer to let the statistics speak for themselves," they direct enquiries to google.com/trends.

    Vegans claim a quick search on Google Trends is like bursting open a Halloween pumpkin to reveal a cascade of trick or treat vegan goodies. It shows a steady overall increase of vegan popularity in the news since the peak of 2004 during The Vegan Society's Diamond Jubilee 1944-2004.

    Further investigation on Google's news archives finds 4,930 mentions of vegan in the news for 2005 rising to 8,250 mentions of vegan in the 2006 news archives.

    At the beginning of the year vegan organisations predicted that numbers of consumers buying vegan products would double by the end of the year.

    In the last week alone the vegans say Google shows over 1,000 results for the word vegan in Google's online news search. Previous vegan witch hunts have only increased popularity.

    http://google.com/trends?q=vegan

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kamarnut at 11/01/07 08:00:23

    Liene.
    Thankyou sooooooo much!

    You don't come across as a jerk at all. You come across as an amazingly intelligent and really helpful person. You've cleared up a lot of niggling questions I had, and restored my faith in vegans (who must take a lot of stick).

    I'm glad you were just jesting and not really being mean jonnysensible J

    I think I will give veganism a go.
    I'd also like to try to see inside a dairy farm so I know what I've been doing to the poor creatures all this time.

    Of course, I'm going to go off to find stuff out now, but if there are any tips anyone feels to tell me that'd be lovely.

    Thanks Liene!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by dirtandskirts at 11/01/07 23:20:26

    johnnysensible: I totally understand, because I've seen the same thing happen with plenty of other vegans. But for me, I find it more effective (or at least less destructive?) to rant and vent and get all vitriolic in vegan safe spaces, rather than taking it out on (what I feel to be) decent people who want answers. To each his/her own. :)


    paragonx: A very sincere you're welcome!


    pekmez: Thanks so much for all your kind words! As to your questions, I'm 23 (the small picture *does* make me look wicked young), and I'm between jobs. I worked as an au pair in France for a year, and before that I worked in a natural foods store for two years. Currently I'm moving back to the Northwest States, and hoping to maybe work in a vegan bakery...

    And as to your B12 questions: B12 can be found in tablets, generally, as either cyanocobalamin or methylcobalamin (harder to find; it's what I take) -- some people say the latter is better absorbed, because the body doesn't need to do as much conversion to make it into a usable form; some disagree. As for how natural it is, according to Wikipedia "B12 cannot be made by plants or animals, as the only type of organisms that have the enzymes required for the synthesis of B12 are bacteria and archaea ... Industrial production of B12 is through fermentation of selected microorganisms." (There is a TON of information on the cyanocobalamin page, and while it's dense, it's fascinating. It also cites the Chinese herb Dang Gui and tempeh as potential vegan B12 sources! But I [and the Vegan Society, and Vegan Outreach] still hold that supplements are more reliable, and I personally think they're better than relying on fortified foods. Better safe than sorry.) While I'm at it, the process to *make* B12 only requires bacteria, and thus it's vegan, but the tablets/pills are not always vegan, because of binders or capsule materials (sublingual tablets are supposedly better absorbed, and in my experience are more likely to be vegan -- they're what to get, IMO, and are oftentimes marked "vegetarian." Check ingredients or call the company if you doubt their veganness). WHEW!

    In a nutshell: B12 is made by bacteria, which are pretty dang natural. As a supplement, you'll find it as cyanocobalamin or methycobalamin. The only potentially "unnatural" (depending on what you define as "unnatural") things will be whatever else makes up the tablet/capsule/whatever.


    gorgeous: As far as turning postings into articles, tell me what's wanted/needed and what to do with it/where to put it and I'd be more than happy to! And like I said to johnnysensible, I do understand where the zero-tolerance thing comes from, though I think there are different ways that are appropriate/useful for expressing this, depending on the context. (After a year in France, though, I'm pretty psyched to be around people who'll even *listen* about veg*n stuff.) For me, it's also helpful to remember that I was once there, too, and I did not listen to vegans back then when they were jerkheads. :)


    stig: So many sometimes-friendly nasty vegans here! :) I am as yet not too scarred and feel it's my duty to be a good representative of Americans/vegans/women/whatever as much as possible, especially to those who don't belong to the group in question (no pretending to be Canadian in France!). I love that quotation, and am surprised I've never heard it before. A little googling tells me it's pretty gory (and not so vegan!) in context, but what can you do? It's the bible, after all...


    kamarnut, last but not least!: You are so very very welcome! I'm so glad my impromptu dissertation helped you (really, I had no idea how long it was going to be, and was kind of amazed when I saw it posted. This seems to be a pattern with me.).

    If you want to see the effects on dairy cows, see if there's a farm animal sanctuary near you (I could be wrong, but I would guess that it'd be hard to get inside a mainstream dairy farm). I volunteered at my first one (Maple Farm Sanctuary) a few weeks ago, and there was one cow there that had jumped a truck headed for slaughter (I don't know if she was being raised for her flesh or her milk, but it all ends up the same anyway). For days she ran around; no one could capture her. Finally they were able to catch her, and the sanctuary took her in. What's so heartbreaking is that she's clearly been psychologically ruined by her earlier life. Have you ever seen slaughterhouse videos, with the cows coming down the line? (I am generally wary of PETA, but they've got a wealth of video resources.) Their eyes are open so, so wide, and they look positively terrified. Her eyes are like this all the time, and she has severe agoraphobia -- she flips out if she's in wide open spaces, and she seldom lets people come near her. I cannot tell you how disturbing this is to see. Contrast this to the one cow that was born there, and the difference is even more striking.

    I'm glad you want to learn more about the dairy-cow issue. Keep in mind, too, that a lot of the truly horrific stuff, no matter the size of the farm, happens on a slower scale. Cows are artificially inseminated/raped (pick your term) so that they will give birth and produce milk. Their calves are taken from them either right away or before they're weaned and the milk stops, so the milk can be taken and sold. The calf is fed other things, and is either male and off to a veal crate (or something marginally "better"), female and destined to suffer the same fate as her mother, or was "only" brought needlessly into this world, sentenced to a life of dependence and being prematurely taken from his/her mother. Anything that could potentially be truly calf- and cow- friendly could never be profitable.

    As far as general vegan info goes, many groups would be more than happy to send you free information. I don't know if you're actually in/near London, but there is tons of support around there (try http://www.vegancampaigns.org.uk/resources/links.html for general UK links, especially around London, it seems). The Vegan Society is a powerhouse of knowledge, and they'll send you a free info pack (address is at the bottom of their page: http://www.vegansociety.com/). Don't underestimate the power of networking, either. Most things are easier when you're not alone; veganism is no different.

    Finally!, make a commitment to really try it seriously. The Vegan Freak people say to give it at least three weeks; I have always found Lent to be a nice length of time for trying new things. The point is, make a decision and stick to it. It might be easy, you might face challenges, but give it an honest go. Like most skills, the more you practice, the easier it gets -- most vegans I know frequently use words like "easy," "fun," and "exciting" to describe being vegan. I am totally one of them, and that is not what I originally thought I was in for. But I have never had so much fun or been so adventurous with food, and I love being able to think about what I eat with a clear conscience.

    I am more than happy to help if you have questions/difficulties with anything else. Have fun on your new adventure!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by dirtandskirts at 11/01/07 23:21:08

    PLUS, today (1 November) has been World Vegan Day!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by dirtandskirts at 11/01/07 23:24:55

    PLUS, oh my it drives me nuts when the site doesn't take the first code and then sticks slashes next to all my quotation marks on the second shot. Just delete those in your mind...

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/02/07 10:15:43

    From today's "Guardian" - a UK newspaper -

    http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/andrew_tyler/2007/11/non-animal_magnetism.html

    Excerpt -

    "My principal consideration, however, is the poor old dairy cow, as
    well as the egg-producing hen and her offspring. Male chicks are
    useless to the egg industry and so, every year, 30 million of them
    are gassed or tossed alive into giant industrial shredders. The milk-
    producing cow is now selectively bred to carry in her udders so much
    milk that she can barely stand upright. Increasing numbers are
    confined all year round under "zero grazing" regimes, where they are
    deprived of everything that makes life tolerable. Once again, their
    male offspring are regarded as a waste by-product. Scores of
    thousands every year are shot or slaughtered within days of birth."

    ********************************************

    Go to the original article to read numerous coments including some very good ones on veg*n beer.

  • Stig's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Stig at 11/02/07 15:03:46

    Wild - just take a look at the thread of comments on the article!

    johnnysensible you are "bad"!

    I hope that they don't delete your link to the Monty Python sketch - "cannibalism" - funny!




  • Report Abuse

    Posted by dirtandskirts at 11/02/07 23:19:36

    johnnysensible:

    You stupid [censored]! (I say this in good humor although I am actually highly annoyed [though not at you].) I have a wretched headache from reading all the (= about a quarter) qskjlmdhfqs ignorant drivel in those comments to the article you posted. Oh my GOD; why can't I stop?

    Should've just stopped with the article. There are so many dumb people out there and they JUST. KEEP. TALKING.

    THIS is when I turn into Angry Non-Violent Killer Vegan.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by dirtandskirts at 11/02/07 23:20:53

    For reference, I was referring to you as a bas tard, though only in jest. Didn't think it would get censored!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/03/07 00:07:18

    Eric's software is very "polite" - you have to use *'s or similar characters to use "olde English" on HappyCow.

    Did you watch the documentary? -

    "I have been searching hard for this veggy restaurant since I first saw this documentary about it in about 1970 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCexj32Z1N0

    I have a "feeling" that it may be in Leeds.

    Have you come across it?

    I am not sure whether it is fully vegan?"

    Y's.

    John the Bast*rd

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by roar at 11/04/07 11:26:47

    and reading back I see I need to apologize for my spelling errors, still waking up... maybe I should be posting later in the day when I'm more awake as I keep leaving out whaht I initially intended to write.
    I'll do so later.
    meow

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 11/04/07 16:30:30

    I was just gonna keep my trap shut in this thread, but I just wanted to say a couple things. I really appreciate people who are out there to share information and I love everyone's passion as well. I think this world needs change and I'm glad so many of you are out there to help! Theh only other thing I wanted to say is: nutritionally your body does not NEED milk or eggs, however not every reason on this thread is correct reasoning either. It is like I have said in prior threads: there is lots of info out there and even though most people do not intend to spread false information, lots of it happens all the time. I'm sure I think lots of wrong things about lots of stuff, too. For example, most people out there have no idea about their food sources and what is happeneing with their food, which is sad :(

    Good luck in finding what suits you as an individual and what makes you feel good as a human being. ^_^

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/05/07 04:40:16

    Not from me - this is a quote from "So Shall We Reap" - by Colin Tudge -

    [The] food chain we have now is not designed to feed people. In line with the modern cure-all—the allegedly free global market—it is designed to produce the maximum amount of cash in the shortest time. Stated thus, our approach to our most important material endeavour seems unbelievably crass—but that is how things are nonetheless. The global free market might be good for some things (perhaps we get better computers and warships that way) but for farming, and hence for humanity as a whole, it is disastrous. The simplistic business rules that may (or may not) apply to other enterprises are fatal to Enlightened Agriculture and so, since we depend on agriculture absolutely, they are proving fatal for us.

    When cash rules, sound biology goes to the wall and common sense and humanity are for wimps. The goal must be to maximize whatever is most expensive — which means livestock. So now we feed well over half the staples that could be feeding us, to cattle, pigs, and poultry. So instead of helping us to feed ourselves, our animals compete with us.

    By 2050, on present trends, the world's livestock will consume enough to feed four billion people—equal to the total population of the early 1970s, when the United Nations held its first international conference to discuss the world's food crisis.

    That livestock will mostly be consumed by people already weighed down with too much saturated fat—for the moment mostly in the west, but increasingly in India and China. The poor will remain poor. So will most farmers. The traders and their shareholders will grow rich. For this, forests are felled and the last of the world's fresh water is squandered—for example on the soya of Brazil, grown to feed the cattle of Europe and now their biggest agricultural earner."


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 11/05/07 12:44:33

    johnny - that's an excellent quote, I may need to look into reading that book now. I'd also highly recommend Fast Food Nation for those who haven't read it.

  • vesalius123's avatar
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    Posted by vesalius123 at 11/07/07 14:11:54

    johnnysensible, you asked for an example of a farm. two very good friends of mine own a farm. They are expanding as they do not kill or sell any of their animals. Both of the owners are vegetarian and they have land next to a river and the animals are not even confined. They lead an ethical buisness in which an animal has never been treated in any way badly. No I dont smoke. And your saying in the US is entirely irrelevent unless you are in favor of humans remaining ignorant, or knowing but shutting up and putting up with it. No animal will be saved that way.

  • Stig's avatar
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    Posted by Stig at 11/07/07 21:30:18

    I was raised on a farm.

    I simply cannot understand how your friends can do this.

    Is this an economically viable "stand alone" business? - or is it subsidised in some way?

    I do not know of a way in which animals can be farmed unless there is animal cruelty / killing involved - that is the reason that I became vegan - to reduce cow / animal abuse & murder.

    Which types of animals do they keep vesalius123?

    If they keep hens do they keep all of the male chicks?

    Is this the farm which you mentioned where the male cows are made into studs?

    Is there any demand for so many stud's? - or are the surplus male cows neutered? & if so how is this done?

    Please share the address / any website.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/08/07 01:34:06

    Hi vesalius123

    ".....unless you are in favor of humans remaining ignorant......" - comment noted - so I am eagerly awaiting your next posting in the hope that it will reduce my ignorance.

    In addition to Stig's questions please do reply to the points & question of "roar" - copied below for clarity -

    "So here I am, thinking about the comment about the baby cows not becoming veal but rather, studs. And I'm like... yeah... for?....an unnecessary product.

    And I too would like to know where this farm is... maybe they could instead use their space to broaden farm animal sanctuaries."


  • Gorgeous's avatar
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    Posted by Gorgeous at 11/08/07 07:13:05

    That Guardian article really generated some passionate debate!

    It is sad to see the damage that meat / dairy consumption does to peoples intelligence!

    I especially liked the "60 restaurants is almost nothing." line from one character called "stevejones123" responding to the fact that Bangkok has 60+ listings in HappyCow.

    "roar" - well said!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/10/07 02:11:48

    "Infamous" vegan teacher Dave Warwak talking a lot of sense with Tina Volpe - an audio well worth listening to - http://www.globaltalkradio.com/ondemand/shows/wakeupamerica/2007Oct29/index.asx

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by ginkgo at 11/10/07 03:50:12

    It is an individual thing for you to decide for yourself. It is not like a law that everyone will have to follow. It is not always a myth that a vegan cares more for animals than people.

    For health, the goats milk tastes better than cows milk and is much healthier. It does not have the antibiotics and growth hormones. It is not homogenized which causes the XO to attack the arteries creating plaque. It is not mucus forming like cows milk which hurts sinuses and respiratory system. But maybe health is not your concern.

    People can always judge others like vegans looking down on vegetarians and instinctos looking down on raw foodists. Maybe you did not know that a subgroup of raw foodists are more strict than raw foodists avoiding an unhealthy thing about raw food and all other diets. But going entirely on instinct, like an animal in the wild, they do not get into the moral issues at all. Ovo or not is not a big moral issue.

    For more on The Evolution of Healthy Diets, see this site www.phifoundation.org/healthy.html

    I went to a meeting with different animal rights groups 2 months ago. They found that the best way to get people interested in being vegetarian was the fact that not eating animals was better for the envirenment than getting a hybrid car. Animals create the global warming gases carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide. So they like the idea of helping the planet in a way that is well accepted in out society. There is no need for people to should [pun] on each other.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/11/07 03:23:12

    Hi ginkgo,

    As I understand it HappyCow is not here to promote cruel "gourmet lacto- / ovo- cuisine".

    HappyCow promotes businesses where cruelty-free food is available.

    "Ovo-" - to get eggs at low prices the male chicks have to be slaughtered - that is a major moral issue for me.

    "Lacto-" to get milk at low prices the male calves have to be slaughtered.

    Goats milk - I do well remember the wonderful taste of goats milk cheeses - at the time that I ate them it had not "clicked" in my tiny brain that male goat kids had to be slaughtered to produce milk / cheeses at "low" prices.

    Ethical milk & egg production where no animals are slaughtered is very costly.

    I am not wealthy enough to produce / purchase ethically produced goats milk products.

    I know of a very few organization in India which diligently protect cows & produce relatively tiny amounts of milk.

    I do not know of any organization / business which "produces" eggs without slaughter.






  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/11/07 21:00:15

    Hi roar - "Lighthouse Farm" do great work!

    However they also have to "discriminate" against roosters.

    They "save" more hens - see the website excerpt below.

    The only "answer" is to educate people so they know that eggs are products of extreme animal cruelty also.

    "Organic Eggs" - "Free Range Eggs" - "Farm Eggs" - are available in shops & stores because male chicks are slaughtered shortly after birth.

    I cannot eat eggs knowing this.

    .............................................

    http://www.lighthousefarmsanctuary.org/

    "The latest trend in our cities is the reintroduction of chickens... and a new controversy begins.

    Many regulations state you can only have three hens and no roosters within the city limits. At one time when you wanted a hen, you might have gotten one from your neighbor who just had a hen hatch a clutch of eggs. This is the natural way of getting chickens and you stood a 50-50 chance of getting young hens (pullets) or getting young roosters (cockerels). The sex of the chick was discovered as they matured.

    Today, hatcheries artificially incubate the fertile eggs for 21 days in large automated incubators that rotate the eggs, regulate humidity and keep the temperature constant. The sex of the chick is determined shortly after hatching with fairly high accuracy.

    Although the hatcheries have a very good success rate of determining the sex of a chick, it is not considered 100% accurate. If you are living in the city and you want the three hens allowed by city ordinances, you may find that as your chicks mature, one day you and your neighbors will wake up to the prepubescent rooster, with its cracking crow, trying its best to announce the dawn. Initially, you may laugh at the silly sounds that come screeching from that little feathered boy you raised from a day-old chick. Eventually, however, it is no longer cute or funny.

    At first, if you are lucky, the neighbors will complain to you. But, you don't know what to do. You make a few inquiries looking for a new home for your beloved friend with no luck. You are afraid to place an advertisement in the papers fearing he will end up in someone's belly. You can't seem to find any takers so... you wait and hope for the best. Then one day, the code enforcement officer knocks on your door and gives you that stern and feared warning--find a new home for your rooster or face fines. Now, the very same rooster you are wanting to save from an untimely death risks being confiscated and "disposed of".

    What are you to do? Believe it or not, many roosters find themselves being turned loose and abandoned. Some rooster owners call the Lighthouse Farm Sanctuary and plead for us to find one more place among our other hens and roosters.

    "He is just a youngster and very pretty with all of his fancy plumage."

    "Can't you take just one more?"


    "Our neighbors are very mad at us and are tired of being awakened at 5 a.m."


    We certainly wish it was that simple. The male sex of most species have strong urges to procreate. When there are too many males and too few females, the females frequently suffer cruel, bloody attacks. Sometimes this leads to permanent disfigurement and even death, and if we took in every rooster from these types of calls, this is what would happen to our hens.

    Unfortunately, many well-meaning people do not think of the long term implications. Being reconnected with nature, purity and wholesomeness is a wonderful goal to work toward, but consider the innocent in this example. Is it really natural to get chickens out of an incubator? Is it really pure to be able to select hens and then expect the roosters to be disposed of like unwanted fodder? Is it really wholesome to only know part of the story?

    We all want to be part of the solution. but to do that, we need to research our options in order to make informed decisions."


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/11/07 04:16:17

    ginkgo - what a sad "spam"! - that is the most boring / lifeless / "anal" website that I have seen in a long, long time.

    Charles (Chuck) Bluestein badly needs to join a creative writing course!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by roar at 11/11/07 13:28:44

    I need to look into it... and it doesn't really matter for me really because I don't eat eggs. But I discovered that the Lighthouse Farm Animal Sanctuary has eggs. I need to look into it because I'm a bit torn on what I think. I mean, I guess they do have to do something with the eggs laid by the chickens they have rescued... just what I'm not sure. I know I wouldn't eat them. But it's a place where people who feel theh need to eat eggs can get them without cruelty involved. I think.
    Lighthouse Farm Animal Sanctuary is a sanctuary less than an hour away from me here in Portland.
    meow

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 11/11/07 22:09:09

    johnnysensible said:"Organic Eggs" - "Free Range Eggs" - "Farm Eggs"

    Yeah, there are so many terms out there for foods that sellers use to make people spend more money because the consumer will think its healthier, safer, cruelty-free, etc etc..and it's just not true....and so many people just live their lives with the wool pulled over their eyes and think they are doing chickens a favor by buying these specialty products.

  • vesalius123's avatar
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    Posted by vesalius123 at 11/13/07 13:09:31

    the farm i have made referance to is not alone. in the new york state area and surrounding states there are several such farms. however they tend to be privately owned and they thus have no need to boost production. this means that their animals are usually treated better and are not used as machines of production.
    note: i am not saying all privatly owned farms are like that. i am not even saying the majority are. all i am saying is that, unlike the 'garden of eden' these farms can be proven to exist.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/14/07 07:15:49

    Oh vesalius123!

    You posted this in "Messages" & HappyCow is "wide open" so I spotted it -
    --------------------------------------------
    "well they raise chickens, ducks and pigs. they eat none of them and havent sold any yet. they have land and the animals are not enclosed. they have room for lots of expansion, though they hav only expanded a little in the past few years. I think that it is in farms like these where the animals are treated well and not enclosed that are the hope because animal abuse on the scale it is now ( in slaughter houses ) only began when humans began mass farming. what do you think?"
    --------------------------------------------

    Abuse is not limited to slaughter houses vesalius123 - it is a feature of every single "economically viable" animal farm.

    My questions to you!

    You call this project of your friends a "farm"! - please tell me just one thing - why ever do they they keep pigs if they have no plans to kill or sell them?

    It just sounds perverse! - what is the future of this project? - are they twisted "animal hoarders"?

    Your posts confuse the hell, out of me vesalius123!

    What am I missing?

    Animal Sanctuaries - I actively support them & often volunteer.

    "Farms" - no - there is no need for animal farming.

    HappyCow is really not the place to make "excuses" for animal farms.

  • vesalius123's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by vesalius123 at 11/14/07 17:09:20

    johnnysensible. i am not making excuses, you are evidently easily confused, and what you are missing is too much to put into one post.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/15/07 04:51:25

    vesalius123 - why do your friends farm pigs?

    Is it because pigs produce a great deal of incredibly smelly methane producing sh*t! - are your friends methane producers?


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 12/03/07 08:56:03

    "Milk, sugar, glucose & thick, thick people!
    .
    .
    .
    http://www.enjoyfrance.com/content/view/1152/31/

    Excerpt -

    Popular chocolate bars Mars, Bounty, Milky Way, Snickers and Twix, as well as Minstrels, Maltesers chocolate sweets, will no longer be suitable for vegetarians, because Masterfoods the company who make the products, said it had started to use rennet, which comes from the stomachs of calves.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXxR9cfB9_s

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=125FCPnOxNY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5Z-utxJvqQ

    *********************************************

    Eat more fruit!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 12/03/07 09:15:46

    Another excerpt -

    = Paul Goalby, corporate affairs manager of Masterfoods is reported to have said: "If the customer is an extremely strict vegetarian, then we are sorry the products are no longer suitable, but a less strict vegetarian should enjoy our chocolate." =


    *********************************************

    "less strict vegetarian" - dream on Paul ! !

    They were never "suitable for vegetarians! - the milk which "Masterfoods" comes from factory farmed / tortured cows!

    *********************************************

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by SynthVegan at 12/03/07 11:08:50

    A lot has already been said on this thread so I'm just going to relay this information as to the aforementioned B-12 sources and where to find them. Someone had mentioned it's hard to find the form of B-12 referred to as "Methylcobalamin" – this is the form I take. I've found this at natural food stores and I really like the sublingual tablets made by "Source Naturals" [please find a link to their site below]. You can get these in two different dosages, that being 1mg or 5mg. Let me know if any of you have any questions.

    Roar: You've made me laugh with your ending to your post… "Meow" it's something I would post too…LOL! So *Meow*

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by SynthVegan at 12/03/07 11:10:02

    Link... Sorry...I need to wake up myself!!! LOL

    www.sourcenaturals.com/products/GP1217/

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by passionforcompassion at 12/03/07 11:53:03

    Sorry if I am repeating anything I tried to skim through all the posts.

    As for the original post... Since, I do not want to contribute to cruelty in anyway I would rather not take the chance that the eggs and dairy I consume come from animals treated cruelly.
    As for health, it is very easy to get everything you need as a vegetarian and vegan. In fact, I can personally testify that being vegan is a lot healthier. Meat eating is not natural. You can get every vitamin you need from food, yes even b12. B12 comes from bacteria, not animal products. Unfortunately, no one knows how much b12 is on an unwashed tomato so it is important for *everyone* to take a multi-vitamin daily.
    As for meat eating being natural, my belief system says that Adam and Eve lived off of a plant-based diet in the garden of Eden. Forgive me, I know not everyone believes in this, but this is what I believe.

    I hope I understood and answered your question clearly. =)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 12/03/07 20:26:11

    Masterfoods may have reversed the rennet decision now - still "The Vegetarian Society" in the UK have a bizarre attitude towards milk / cow torture -

    *********************************************

    Masterfoods U-turn on animal rennet
    Source: mad.co.uk | Author: Arif Durrani | Published: 21 May 2007 09:00

    Confectionary manufacturer Masterfoods has abandoned its plan to use animal products in some of its most popular chocolate bars, including Mars, Snickers and Maltesers, after pressure from vegetarians.

    The company announced last week it was changing the whey used in some chocolate and ice cream from a vegetarian source to one with traces of rennet, an animal enzyme.

    The Vegetarian Society protested on behalf of three million vegetarians in the UK and asked people to "express their concern" to Masterfoods.

    Within a week of the decision being announced, more than 6,000 people had called and emailed the Mars UK switchboard, which usually receives 500 comments per week. Forty MPs also signed a petition "to voice their disquiet".

    Mars has been the first to react. Fiona Dawson, managing director of the snack business in the UK, said: "The consumer is our boss and we had lots of feedback from consumers who were unhappy about the change. It became very clear, very quickly that we had made a mistake, for which I am sorry.

    "There are three million vegetarians in the UK and not only did we disappoint them but we upset a lot of the consumers. We have listened to their views and have decided to reverse our decision."

    Mars will begin the process of removing all rennet traces immediately. Masterfoods is also committed to changing the whey used in Snickers, Maltesers and Galaxy, effectively reversing last week's announcement.

    Dr Annette Pinner, chief executive of the Vegetarian Society, said: "We are delighted that Mars UK has been honest enough to mark the beginning of National Vegetarian Week by admitting that it made a mistake."

  • Stig's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Stig at 12/04/07 05:25:28

    "Oh, for the wings of any bird, other than a battery hen".

    Spirit Of The Age - Hawkwind - 1977 -

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSR5TnNGKmo

  • Rafael's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Rafael at 12/06/07 21:12:57

    WIC Food Program Being Overhauled
    Thursday, December 06, 2007

    By FREDERIC J. FROMMER, Associated Press Writer
    ADVERTISEMENT
    WASHINGTON —

    Let them eat tofu, the government says.

    That's one of the new food products being offered under a major overhaul of the Women, Infants and Children program. But primarily, the Agriculture Department wants more fruits, vegetables and whole grains on the plates of poor women and children and less milk, cheese, eggs and juice.

    The department calls the change the first major revision of the program in 30 years. The changes will be effective next February and state agencies will then have 18 months to implement them. The program serves about 8 million people.

    Eric Steiner, the department's associate administrator for special nutrition programs, said WIC recipients typically have diets deficient in whole grains, fruits and vegetables. He said there's also a prevalence of obesity among the population.

    The USDA based the changes on suggestions by the Institute of Medicine with the caveat that the revisions not increase costs. The Institute of Medicine is a branch of the National Academy of Sciences, an independent organization that advises the government on scientific matters.

    The reductions of other products, such as dairy, were made both to keep the cost of the program from rising and to improve nutrition.

    "The revised packages have less saturated fat and cholesterol, and this is accomplished by reducing the quantities of milk and cheese," Steiner said.

    Under the WIC program, people receive vouchers for specific foods, averaging about $39 a month in 2007. Under the revisions, vouchers for fruits and vegetables will be $6 for children, $8 for women and $10 for fully breast-feeding women _ with the goal of encouraging more women to breast feed.

    Products such as tofu, soy beverages, tortillas and brown rice are being offered as alternatives to meet the demands of more culturally diverse populations.

    The department received more than 46,000 public comments since first proposing the changes last year, and most were supportive, Steiner said.

    Anti-hunger advocates praised the changes. Jim Weill, president of the Food Research and Action Center, said the addition of whole grains, fruits and vegetables will reduce obesity and "help nutritionally vulnerable children form healthy eating habits from an early age."

    The dairy, egg and fruit juice industries backed the additions, but lamented the reduced roles for their products. Carol Freysinger, executive director of the Juice Products Association, said the reductions could "send an inappropriate and unsubstantiated message about the benefits of 100 percent juice consumption."

    According to government estimates, annual milk and cheese sales under the revised program will be about $960 million, a reduction of roughly $400 million. Juice sales would be reduced by nearly half, to $281 million, while egg sales would drop from $120 million to $67 million.

    Chris Galen, a spokesman for the National Milk Producers Federation, called the lost sales to dairy significant. "And we don't think it's prudent from a public health standpoint," he said.

    Howard Magwire, a lobbyist for the United Egg Producers, said he was hopeful the industry could make up for some of the losses with WIC recipients spending other money on eggs.

  • Stig's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Stig at 12/07/07 21:17:38

    "Milk chocolate nightmares!"

    Masterfoods, more revelations, all the more reason to buy more fruit!

    .............................................

    PETA boycotting Mars candy co. over animal cruelty

    Fri Dec 7, 2007 6:29pm EST

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) is calling for a boycott of M&Ms, Twix candy bars and other snack foods made by Mars Inc, claiming the company funds experiments that kill mice, rats, guinea pigs and rabbits.

    "In violation of its own written policy, the candy company is currently funding a study at the University of California, San Francisco, that uses rats. The rats are force fed by having plastic tubes shoved down their throats, and they are then cut open and killed," PETA said in a statement.

    "In response to this new information, PETA is filing a legal complaint with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) over Mars' false statement," the group said in a statement. The FTC investigates claims of dishonesty in advertising.

    Mars did not return three calls seeking comment.

    PETA spokeswoman Kathy Guillermo said in an interview the experiments seemed aimed at developing health claims for chocolate because it contains flavonoids.

    Health studies have found that flavonoids protect against heart disease and cancer.

    Guillermo said the boycott would start on Monday.

    Mars says on its Web site that it bars animal research "involving euthanasia, vivisection or the suffering of any animal" in developing its snacks, drinks and pet products.

    But the Web site also says that a separate business unit, Symbioscience, would undertake "limited forms of animal testing" when required to demonstrate the safety or efficacy of "pharmaceutical and therapeutic food products."

    PETA said in its statement that Mars paid for experiments in which mice had to swim in a pool of water and paint and find a hidden platform to avoid drowning and were killed later.

    The group also accused Mars of funding an experiment in which plastic tubes were surgically attached to guinea pigs' carotid arteries and cocoa ingredients were injected into their jugular veins to cause a sharp drop in blood pressure, and another experiment in which rabbits were fed high-cholesterol diets with varying amounts of cocoa and later the main blood vessels to their hearts were cut out and examined.

    (Reporting by Diane Bartz; Editing by Toni Reinhold)

  • Stig's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Stig at 12/07/07 21:20:53

    About Rafael's post - WIC Food Program slightly reducing their focus on "lacto-" & "ovo-" - it is great to get a little good news from the US, a welcome change however small!

  • Rafael's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Rafael at 12/12/07 22:56:51

    If they sue they will lose!
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Milk producers threaten to sue animal-rights group over Got Milk?

    WASHINGTON (AP) - A decidedly gross version of the prolific "Got Milk" slogan isn't sitting well with milk processors.

    The industry is demanding that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals end a publicity campaign that asks "Got pus? Milk does."

    PETA has plastered the slogan on T-shirts, mugs and other merchandise. The group claims there are dangerous levels of somatic cells, better known as pus, in much of the milk sold in this country. The group contends udder infection is the source.

    The California Milk Processor Board says there's no truth in the pus claims and that PETA is violating the campaign's trademark. The groups says, "pasteurization has been required for almost a century in order to remove harmful organisms and bacteria."

  • Rafael's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Rafael at 12/12/07 23:21:31

    PETA's superb reply - read it here -

    blog.peta.org/archives/D._Donahue-J._Lemmon_response.pdf

    Excerpt -

    As your client knows, PETA has long protested the dairy industry's treatment of cows and the industry's efforts to mislead consumers into believing that cows' milk marketed by industrialized producers is a healthy and humane product, maintaining that it is neither. As part of its mission to educate consumers about the industry's practices, PETA has, among other things, parodied the "Got Milk?" slogan that the milk industry uses to market milk. Such
    parodies include PETA's "Got Zits?," "Got Heart Disease?," "Got Breast Cancer?," "Got Sick Kids?," "Got Diabetes?," and "Got Veal?" campaigns, as well as its "got pus? Milk does" campaign at issue here. PETA launched each of these campaigns to draw attention to the fact that drinking milk is linked to these various health ailments and to the integral role of the dairy industry in the veal industry. Specifically, the "got pus? Milk does" campaign was launched in
    2002 to educate consumers about the presence of pus in milk due to the painful nflammation of cows' mammary glands (mastitis) that is common among cows raised for their milk. To ensure that its educational message will reach the broadest audience possible, PETA has not only
    advertised in traditional media (e.g., television, radio, print, Internet and outdoor), it also has sought to create "walking billboards" by selling t-shirts and other items of merchandise that
    contain the slogan.
    .
    .
    .

  • Stig's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Stig at 12/14/07 04:25:57

    I just read the whole PETA reply on their blog.

    Excellent!

    The PETA crew are true "friends of cows"!


  • Gorgeous's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Gorgeous at 12/15/07 00:55:57

    This is a meat eater writing on why eating meat is "kinder" than being a lacto- / ovo-. Personally I fully agree with her.

    Lacto- / ovo- consumers really need to "wake up"!
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    "By a similar logic I used to be a lacto-ova vegetarian. But milk cows
    and laying hens are treated worse than the members of their species
    who are raised for meat. And they're eventually slaughtered anyway;
    they just suffer longer before they die. Plus, you know what farmers
    have to produce a lot of, in order to keep their cows in milk? Veal
    calves."
    .
    .
    From - meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/ 2007/12/why_ i_eat_meat.php

  • Gorgeous's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Gorgeous at 12/19/07 04:32:14

    Lawmakers and consumers ask FDA to delay cloning ruling

    By Christopher Doering
    Tue Dec 18, 9:59 PM ET



    The Food and Drug Administration should delay a decision on whether milk and meat from some cloned animals are safe to eat until additional safety studies can be conducted, a Democratic lawmaker and consumer groups said in separate statements on Tuesday.

    Rep. Rosa DeLauro, a Connecticut Democrat, who chairs the U.S. House Appropriations subcommittee that oversees the Food and Drug Administration, said in a letter to FDA Commissioner Andrew von Eschenbach that there is not enough data to prove consuming products from cloned animals is safe.

    "Both the House and the Senate Agriculture Appropriations Committees strongly encourage the FDA to obtain more information and conduct additional studies before acting further on this issue," she said in the letter.

    The $515.7 billion bill that passed the House of Representatives late Monday directs the FDA to complete further review and analysis before issuing a final decision on cloning. A similar measure was included in the farm bill that passed in the Senate last week.

    Separately, the Biotechnology Industry Organization said two of the country's largest cloning companies will announce on Wednesday a registry to allow food companies to identify where cloned animals are located in the country.

    A draft ruling by the FDA last December would for the first time allow the sale of food made from cloned cattle, pigs and goats. A final decision from FDA is expected in the next few weeks.

    Cloning animals involves taking the nuclei of cells from adults and fusing them into egg cells that are implanted into a surrogate mother.

    At present, these products cannot be sold, and the ban remains in place until a final ruling is issued.

    Advocates of livestock cloning say it will improve the quality of steaks and dairy products by propagating disease-resistant animals that can produce lean and tender meat or make more milk.

    Critics contend not enough is known about the technology to ensure it is safe for humans. They also say FDA needs to address concerns over animal cruelty and ethical issues tied to the technology.

    "It is much too soon for this controversial technology to be unleashed in the marketplace, especially without requiring it to be labeled," said Wenonah Hauter, executive director of Food & Water Watch. "When it comes to cloned food, the FDA should listen to the public instead of the biotech industry."

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 12/19/07 22:30:13

    An excerpt from another article -
    .
    "About 570 cloned cattle are housed on farms and at university research stations today, about 75 percent of them made by ViaGen and Trans Ova Genetics of Sioux Center, Iowa. The goal is to give breeders superior stock to boost milk production and to produce more consistently high-quality cuts of beef.
    "
    .
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/18/AR2007121802235.html
    .
    .
    .
    Milk anyone ? ? ? ?

  • auungbong's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by auungbong at 12/20/07 15:51:32

    Kamarnut,

    By not consuming meat, poulty or any type of seafood, you are doing ALOT more than most people who continue to consume the "protein enriched foods."

    If your diet consists of dairy as well as your typical vegetarian/vegan diet dont fret. Eat eggs if you want. I see more hostility here than in a butchershop. Even if later on in life you decide to eat meat, poultry.... just remember to eat very little of it. By cutting your intake of any meats alone, your helping out the world.

    Enjoy and have a great holiday

  • Stig's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Stig at 12/21/07 06:38:06

    Hey - Liene already converted kamarnut to being a "sweet smelling vegan" many weeks ago! - do not push her back into being a smelly mucus drinker / bottom eater!

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  • Stig's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Stig at 12/21/07 08:05:16

    "....where most eggs, milk & meat come from...."
    .
    Please watch the incredible "Meatrix" - 3 short film's -
    .
    www.themeatrix1.com/
    www.themeatrix2.com/
    www.moremeatrix.com/
    .



  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 12/21/07 08:30:40

    Fewer chickens will now be bred / tortured.

    Less chicken sh+t will be produced!

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Posted on Fri, Dec. 21, 2007

    Monks to stop selling eggs

    Abbey, bowing to pressure from PETA, will cease production

    By CAROLYN CLICK
    [email protected]

    Monks at a Lowcountry monastery are looking for a new source of income.

    Mepkin Abbey, a Trappist monastery on the Cooper River, announced Thursday it will cease its egg production business following pressure from an animal rights group.

    The phaseout of the industry, which has sustained the brothers for more than 40 years, comes after attacks by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

    Earlier this year, and again this week, PETA charged that the birds at Mepkin Abbey were caged in cramped quarters and suffered inhumane practices. PETA urged shoppers to boycott Mepkin Abbey eggs, which are sold at Piggly Wiggly and other grocery stores.

    Abbot Stan Gumula has disputed PETA's claims, but said the continuing dispute detracts from their life of prayer, work and contemplation.

    "We will be looking for a new industry to help us meet our daily expenses. We hope to find a source of income that will respect this tradition of work on the land and care for the environment."

    Gumula said the brothers who make their home at Mepkin had begun discussions under the late abbot Francis Kline but had postponed a decision because of his illness and death last year.

    The egg business, which supplied among its customers at the Charleston Air Force Base, will be phased out over the next year and a half.

    The 28 monks, who had 28,000 chickens, also have a gift shop and sell the Earth Healer brand of fertilizer for gardens.

    "We're delighted to learn that Mepkin is getting out of the cruelty business and we hope that we can work with them to remove the hens from these cages," PETA vice president Bruce Friedrich said.

    "No matter what the abuser's religion, it's wrong to abuse one animal, let alone 20,000 of them."

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 12/21/07 08:33:56

    The 3 "Meatrix" films are powerful!
    .
    Does anyone have any ideas on how to encourage the various "Hare Krishna" groups / other "lacto-Hindu" groups to cease their purchase / consumption of bloody, factory farmed milk?
    .
    Be kind to cows!

  • Stig's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by Stig at 12/30/07 23:24:17

    Excerpts -
    .
    .
    .
    "We are a family owned and operated business with a reputation for providing farm fresh milk to our customers," Whittier Farms said in a statement. "We strive to produce the best product and therefore we are extremely concerned about the situation and will be working to obtain the results of the investigation."
    .
    .
    .
    An elderly man sickened asked health officials about the milk in his refrigerator, and an unopened container from Whittier Farms later tested positive for listeria. Testing showed the bacteria that sickened all four people likely came from the same source.

    The bacteria can cause listeriosis, a rare but potentially fatal disease that can kill babies and people with weakened immune systems and cause miscarriages in pregnant women. Symptoms include fever, headache, stiffness, nausea, abdominal pain and diarrhea.
    .
    .
    .
    news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071229/ap_on_he_me/listeriosis_deaths;_ylt=AsKKTdbz8Q59TOKYT6Rxtmha24cA

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 03/19/08 00:07:56

    http://www.macrobiotics.co.uk/articles/dairyfoods.htm
    .
    John Robbins, author of Diet for New America, agrees.
    .
    In his book he states, " Dairy cattle are fed such 'delicacies' as sawdust laced with ammonia and feathers, shredded newspaper (complete with all the toxic colored ink from Sunday comics and advertising circulars), 'plastic hay,' processed sewage, tallow and grease, poultry litter, cement dust, and cardboard scraps, not to mention the insecticides, antibiotics, hormones and tranquilizers."

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by pekmez at 07/23/08 06:46:12

    Thank you Dirtandskirts for answers

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by beachin_around at 06/06/09 17:53:20

    Hi guys, is drinking soya milk everyday safe?