Is CHEESE vegetarian???

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 02/12/10 23:06:29

The word 'vegetarian' is useless - it is a blanket term for cruel eating.

Eat dairy products if you have no regard for -

1) Cows.

2) The environment.

3) Your health.

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Posted by lmzeigler at 02/14/10 16:36:03

I don't think those products fall under the typical use of the term 'vegetarian' because they contain rennet, which is made from the stomachs of mammals.

I have to agree with the above commenter though...even if the cheeses are 'vegetarian' and contain only dairy, they are still horrible products. Dairy cows become hamburger, and the calves that are bred so the dairy cows can continue to give milk become veal. Dairy is about the worst of the worst in terms of animal cruelty.

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Posted by Tatiana at 02/16/10 10:17:59

I agree. There are vegetable and bacterial rennets available, but regardless of the type of rennet used, they all involve dairy, so the cruelty is there.

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Posted by malloneek at 02/28/10 20:48:22

I say we let this person follow their path of vegetarianism without rude-ish comments. It's great to educate a person on why they might want to go all the way vegan, but for most of us it's a process, and a good start is being a simple vegetarian.
I know when I first made the vegetarian decision I thought I was doing perfectly well, and then after several years I realized the horrors of dairy and other products.
Education is good, but let them make those decisions in their own time.

So - to answer the cheese rennet question, it's really hard to know without calling the manufacturer. If it's a vegetable rennet they will often label it so, or somewhere on the label it will indicate no beef rennet. Unfortunately it will take research. VRG.org has a good cheese list of what's beef rennet or not so start there

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Posted by lmzeigler at 03/01/10 16:21:56

Hi Malloneek,
I don't know if your admonition was directed at me, but I didn't intend my comment to be "rude-ish." I honestly wish that in my nearly 15 years of being vegetarian that someone had let me know about things like rennet and the cruelty in the dairy industry. The day I learned about these things(from Colleen Patrick Goudreau's amazing podcast) was literally the very day I decided to go vegan. I don't see the point in withholding information like that from someone who asks a question about rennet, especially when the question was posted on a website called happycow of all things!
With respect,
Liz

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Posted by Zelda at 03/02/10 07:37:31

Thank you all for your responses as they continue to educate me or force me to be aware of things I know but have long pretended not to know. I have been a vegetarian for 4 1/2 years. Much like when I became a vegetarian I feel myself evolving. When I first switched to a vegetarian diet, I didn't concern myself with what broths were used in soups or what else may have been on the grill before my veggie burger, but slowly I became diligent in questioning such things. Now I find myself being pulled to a vegan diet. I have recently finished the The Complete Idiot's Guide to Vegan Living. I have picked up vegan magazines. I am ignoring or adapting the non-vegan recipes in my Vegetarian Times. However, the thing that destroys my efforts is cheese. I grew up on cheese. I practically lived on cottage cheese as a child. When my body is stressed, whether it be physical stress from PMS or a hangover or mental stress from a hard day at work or a fight with my best friend, I find myself reaching for the cheese. The sad thing is that it doesn't even make me feel better. Like 80% of the population I am lactose intolerant and cheese makes me feel bloated and overall crappy. A vegan friend told me once that she had a harder time quitting cheese than cigarettes, and I truly believe that. In fact, I am living that right now. I am four weeks smoke free and have craved cheese much more often than the smokes. I have successfully deleted all other dairy from my diet. Soy milk - check. Soy milk or rice milk ice cream - check. Earth Balance instead of butter - check. Soy yogurt - check. But cheese? I ask for assistance here. Does anybody have some vegan cheese substitutes that will satiate my cravings so I can wean myself finally and for good off the dairy?

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Posted by Sonja and Dirk at 03/02/10 09:10:31

Zelda - Congrats on your continuing evolution towards veganism! Cheese was the hardest thing for us to give up as well as it's addictive. As long as we still ate even little bits of it, it held a sway over us. We had to just stop and never eat it again. Envisioning the suffering of the cows and calves helped me stop. Today, years later, the sight of any dairy is really disturbing to me. Veganism changes your lookout on lots of things. Just know that the longer you stay away from it, the easier it gets.

In regards to specific vegan cheeses, there isn't anything that exactly duplicates real cheese, so don't expect it to. Just appreciate it for what it is. You picked a good time though as Daiya is just amazing. It's great for anything that needs melting - pizza, mac 'n cheese, enchiladas, etc. I also use Follow Your Heart's cheese for pizzas, but I wouldn't eat this cheese straight up. As for straight up, Dr. Cow is good with wine and crackers although it's a bit expensive. Sheese and Cheezly are from the UK, but if you can find them, they are good as well (I prefer the hard versions, not the softer ones). Lastly, you can try using the "Uncheese Cookbook" for recipes with nutritional yeast and such. I love the fondue recipe.

Good luck!

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Posted by animalsrule at 03/02/10 15:46:34

Some companys are very cruel to there milk cows:no free land, not enough room to exercise, all cramed togher, and even sometimes kill the cows after they get the milk. Thats why I buy organic cheese. A really good organic dairy farm is Stonyfield Farm. stonyfield.com/healthy_planet/importance_of_organic_farming/supporting_organic_family_farms/index.jsp

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Posted by lmzeigler at 03/02/10 20:30:31

Hi Zelda,
How great that you are exploring more vegan options! Being vegan is a wonderful way to live!
I agree with Sonia and Dirk--none of the processed, packaged vegan cheeses really taste like dairy cheese. BUT...Daiya is pretty awesome and is the best one out there by far. And I LOVE a nacho sauce made out of nutritional yeast that is posted on vegweb.com (address below). I use it for nachos or any Mexican-style food, on baked potatoes, for mac and cheese, etc. And it's super easy and quick to make.

Hi Animalsrule,
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but just because a milk is labeled organic doesn't mean it is cruelty-free. I'm pretty sure the term organic goes to what the animal is fed only, and not to how the animal is treated. I'm so glad to hear more and more people are worrying about the treatment of dairy cows, and I think replacing dairy with non-dairy options is really the best thing for the cows.

Cheers!
Liz

vegweb.com/index.php?topic=12238.0

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 03/03/10 02:42:35

Hey malloneek - we are in 2010 - your idea's are very '80's'!

. . . . . . . . . . .

Oh Noah - wake up my friend! - http://stonyfield.com - that it one 'cruel / twisted / deceptive / lying website. Whatever are you thinking about 'recommending' it here? - this site 'HappyCow' seeks to make cows happy - i.e. no longer 'farmed'.

Where are the Stonyfield Farm pages about them sending all of the little boy cows off to be turned into veal?

Where are the pages showing the retired cows aged 20+ years - oops - I forgot - they sell those to be turned into burgers & 'pet' food.

Where are the pages of them forcibly raping the cows...........

These sicko's are treating cows in exactly the same way that Hitler treated some humans - 'kill some - torture some - keep some for breeding purposes' - see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics

The place can be renamed as 'Stony Hearts Farm'!

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 03/03/10 04:13:04

"In fact, if one person is unkind to an animal it is considered to be cruelty, but where a lot of people are unkind to animals, especially in the name of commerce, the cruelty is condoned and, once large sums of money are at stake, will be defended to the last by otherwise intelligent people."

Ruth Harrison, author of the book "Animal Machines" - published in 1964!

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Posted by Zelda at 03/03/10 07:52:45

Thanks Everyone! I appreciate the advice and support.

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Posted by polski at 03/08/10 15:17:49

some cheese is made from people in a cruelty free process such as this...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM-CmfCkyQM&feature=channel

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Posted by Zelda at 03/10/10 12:28:19

Just had my first vegan bologna and cheese using the Follow Your Heart cheddar. I give it two thumbs up!!!

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Posted by fcp at 03/26/10 10:46:30

I am a lacto-ovo, slowly moving towards Vegan. I seek products that try to avoid cruelty during the farming of animals, but I'm aware many claims are false.

No strong opinions on my part, but I do believe there is an element in having caws that naturally produce milk and free range chicken that, also naturally produce eggs, that somehow brings us closer to conniving with animals.

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Posted by gr8vegan at 04/28/10 02:03:21

I would love to take back the term vegetarian. Last time I checked milk and fish weren't vegetables. It should be an issue we take up with Merriam Webster & English teachers and then just start making fun of people who miss use the word.

People that don't eat meat, but consume other animal products should just be called Liquid Meat Eaters, or Torturetarians.

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Posted by xdunlapx at 05/18/10 02:13:27

gr8vegan: Who said vegetarians eat fish? We don't. The reason there is a distinction between vegan and lacto-ovo vegetarian is because lacto-ovo means lactation and egg eaters. Gross. So your still safe being called a vegan. Don't worry.

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Posted by Tatiana at 05/18/10 15:48:36

As a group, people on this site are overall much more knowledgeable about vegetarian terminology, but a lot of people misuse the terms. I have seen a LOT of people consider themselves vegetarian when they are in fact pescetarian, and I have even seen people consider themselves vegetarian if they eat chicken. I know it may sound really dumb to those who are educated on the terms, but it really does happen out there...a lot.

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Posted by cookies and cream at 07/26/10 10:42:41

gr8vegan:
vegetarians don't eat fish. pescetarians eat fish and seafood, but veggies don't.

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Posted by AndyT at 07/27/10 08:33:15

I am vegan because I do not like what the dairy and egg industry do to cattle and chickens.

But, what I like even less, is when vegans insult vegetarians for not going all the way, instead of being happy that they have already made a big step in the right direction. The enemy is out there, not in here. Just my 2c...

Best regards,
Andy

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Posted by Jimbomatic at 07/30/10 12:37:19

kumarpramod5 posted on this forum to gather information...and was given nothing but rude comments. No one really answered his question. The answer is...it depends. Here is a list of cheeses, and which are and aren't made using animal rennet.

cheese.joyousliving.com/

Enough already with the vile comments. Give this person the facts and let them decide. Do you really think attacking someone is the way to sway them to become a vegan if they are already vegetarian? You should be commending someone for being a vegetarian, not attacking them because they haven't become full-fledged vegans!

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 07/30/10 17:25:38

Love your use of the word 'should'.

I ask you one simple question Jimbo..... Why 'commend' the torture / rape / murder of cows?

'Lacto-vegetarians' hurt cows - badly.

Your 'list' is gross!

This site lists places where vegan food can be found - it does not promote dietary perversions such as ingesting cow juice.

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Posted by rmark25 at 07/30/10 20:35:08

There are some major manufacturers of cheese that only use vegetable rennet, like Cabot Here is a link that may be helpful to you
http://cheese.joyousliving.com/
also, any "kosher" cheeses will be because they cannot mix dairy with blood, which gives you a closer idea what rennet is.
This site is a tool where all people can gather with the same goal to slow down and hinder animal suffering and exploitation. That's why they have the option for "almost vegetarian" "vegan", or whatever your label may be. I think nobody is in any position to judge, we all know what cow's milk is and how it's taken, why attack someone who consumes it? Being obnoxious does not help any cause :-)

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 07/31/10 17:55:56

Yoshi is back - unchanged!

Posting a list of torture products on HappyCow is simply warped bad taste.

HappyCow helps those who are addicted to dairy / eggs / honey etc. to beat those addictions.

If you are a lacto-vegetarian then work on yourself - do not use this forum as a place to promote cheese eating.

Rennet is irrelevant - cheese of any kind is a product of murder / enslavement.

Vegans tolerate humble lactos - not those who revel in their cruel habits / addiction.

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Posted by Yoshi at 07/31/10 11:00:08

Johnny must live a very lonely life...I can't possibly imagine how unbearable he is in person. Hence the reason most non-veggies claim to 'hate' vegetarians/vegans. OK Johnny, go cry to the webmaster.

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Posted by Jimbomatic at 07/31/10 14:19:31

Yoshi. I agree with you.

Johnny....read the Happy Cow home page. This site is not just for vegans, but for vegetarians as well. The quickest way to make sure to drive away anyone from the idea of becoming a vegan is to take on a nasty attitude such as you have shown.

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Posted by Jimbomatic at 08/01/10 07:04:49

Johnny....I suggest that you work on YOURSELF. Your lack of humility and and your nasty attitude will not gain veganism a single follower.

This is a vegetarian website, and, as such, all levels of vegetarianism are welcome.

I'm sure that there are others that could find ways in which YOU'RE not going as far as THEY believe you should go in your beliefs, as well.

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/01/10 16:10:41

Jimbomatic - the vile comments here are mainly from yourself.

You actively support animal abuse - especially cow abuse.

Your cruel views are most certainly not welcome here.

'Cheesies' squirm & squeal when anyone pulls them about their dirty eating habits - just like drug addicts when they are denied a 'fix'.

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Posted by jive at 08/02/10 00:46:50

someone tell JohnnySensible that he is torturing, raping and killing my respect for vegans everywhere with is utter contempt for people who are doing there best. Clearly he thinks that hate is the way to change peoples minds, and that sends cold shivers down my spine. I have one word for you JohnnySensible, and that word is pity.........

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/02/10 01:13:05

".......doing their best.......".

If doing your best involves promoting cheese then you have very low standards - BTW are you a "cheesie"?

There is no hate coming from my side Jive - all that I am asking is that people have enough good manners / good taste to stop encouraging cow abuse here on HappyCow.

You last post is weird beyond belief.

I don't believe that too many people will be craving your respect.

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Posted by cookies and cream at 08/02/10 08:56:58

Johnny, why don't we let everyone choose their own path?

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Posted by Jimbomatic at 08/02/10 10:05:28

Meat-eaters have a real find in Johnny. Hi is the exact characterization to which they try to portray ALL vegetarians. They generally try to make us all appear to be both slightly balmy and self-righteous. Fortunately, the majority of us can express our views in a civil manner, and not attack someone for a simple question like "Is cheese vegetarian?".

The original poster asked a simple question which required a simple answer. The facts are that, by definition, cheese is vegetarian.

I'm not going to get into whether dairy or eggs are healthful or not. And I will most definitely agree that the dairy and egg industries are rife with cruelty. However, to theorize that it is not possible to acquire dairy or egg in a cruelty-free manner, could be argued vehemently.

Johnny, however, prefers to simply make blanket statements, as he seems to think he knows best how all of us should be leading our lives.

I'm guessing, however, that, like most of us, Johnny drives a car; or rides in a bus, train, plane or automobile; or uses products conveyed by these vehicles. Those splats on the windshield and the carcasses by the side of the road are not just coincidences.

However, since Johnny wants his convenience, I'm sure he sees nothing wrong with participating in THESE activities.

At this point, I should say "You can attract many more flies with honey, than with vinegar". But I'm sure Johnny would find that a cruel statement to make....at least since he didn't say it.

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Posted by Jimbomatic at 08/02/10 14:00:36

My apologies for the typo. I meant to type "The facts are that, by definition, cheese is vegetarian, if it doesn't include animal rennet".

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Posted by jive at 08/02/10 15:18:13

JohnnySensible, your "encouraging" people to stop promoting cow abuse??? I haven see you say one encouraging thing on this thread!!!!

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/02/10 17:07:55

...............under attack by confused, semi-literate milkies & cheesies!

It is an old conflict.

As gr8vegan pointed out - these cruelty addicted perverts hijacked the term 'vegetarian' long back.

Now they are working to turn HappyCow into a 'lowest common denominator' site where they can chat & giggle about their perversions!

Jimbomatic says "cheese is vegetarian" - Jimbo go ask your mommy / aunties / sisters / girlfriends for some milk & make yourself some yummy cheese - stop your cruelty to cows.

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/02/10 17:29:26

'Lowest (or Least) Common Denominator' - .......The phrase is by further analogy used to describe the most basic, least sophisticated level of taste, sensibility, or opinion among a group of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowest_common_denominator

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Posted by gr8vegan at 08/02/10 18:12:45

I'm just going to repost my original thoughts;
I would love to take back the term vegetarian. Last time I checked milk and fish weren't vegetables. It should be an issue we take up with Merriam Webster & English teachers and then just start making fun of people who miss use the word.

People that don't eat meat, but consume other animal products should just be called Liquid Meat Eaters, or Torturetarians.

Sorry torturetarians, cheese is not ok.

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Posted by jive at 08/02/10 18:51:13

"lowest common denominator"... sounds like johnny has divided us into classes. next thing you know, hes going to want to segregate us. Pretty soon, we wont be allowed to drink water from the same fountain as the sophistcated people of johnny's level.

And is always nice when someone makes fun of the illiterate.

JohnnySensible, i hope oneday you realize the sensible thing to do is live in harmony with those around you.

gr8vegan, what a wonderful strategy. Instead of of showing me the pros of going vegan, you have opted to dwell on the definition of a word, and to label an entire group of people.. bravo

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/02/10 20:37:15

Sure there are classes / categories 'jive'.

Sick lactos & ovos can sometimes be very effectively 'treated' after they have been identified / segregated.

Here is a partial explanation for you - here I am not going to go into the various types of 'lie to get money' non-herbivorous honey & pollen pushing raw foodists etc.

Carnists take responsibility for their dietary choices - they basically choose diets that stimulate their tongues - they switch off their 'compassion centers' in their brains. The consequence of this eating style is that they quickly get sick with horrible diseases & die young - http://www.melaniejoy.org/what-is-carnism/

Some carnists are 'forced' into their diet because of the geographical locations / climates that they live in.

Tip for eskimos - move closer to equator gals & guys!

Lactos & ovos are also carnists - they are often unimaginably arrogant twisted individuals.

While not eating solid flesh the lactos & ovos continuously get others to torture / juice / steal from animals & insects for them so that they can eat dairy / eggs / honey / pollen etc.

Some lactos & ovos live in a complete bizarre state of denial thinking that they are somehow 'superior' to the carnists who ingest solid flesh (there are perhaps a couple or more folk like this in the message thread above). These lactos & ovos squeal a lot when challenged about their insanity / irrationality & continously attempt to group together & hijack sites such as this one.

Lacto diets may have been a somewhat compassionate choice, for example for some Asians / Indian families 120+ years when they had enough land to allow cows to live until they died of old age / when the world population was much lower / pre-refrigeration. Lacto is not a sane / compassionate choice for 2010.

Ovo diets always caused stress to birds.

Lacto & ovo diets have nothing to do with 'vegetarianism' - the carnists who title themselves lacto-vegetarians & ovo-vegetarians have simply usurped & ba2tardi2ed the word 'vegetarian'.

Herbivores / vegans eat for the animals / for the planet - some are interested in being peak performers / really healthy - example - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_N._Graham

HappyCow's pages - linked from here - http://www.happycow.net/becoming_vegetarian.html - which Jimbo.... loves to 'take shelter of' are long out of date - they will be rewritten soon.

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Posted by kindlizard at 08/02/10 22:16:02

Those who think cheese is alright bc it is "organic", which is a lot of folks out there I meet these days, should read the other thread I started about the folks who own a HF chain in Portland, OR called New Frontier. They claim to have never even had so much as a garden, let alone run a small dairy, and are running a very large, very toxic to the earth and shamefully hideous and abusive dairy outside of Portland. Their intent likely isn't to beat on animals, no, their intent is all about the exorbitant money in "organic" dairy products. They have poisoned the water of the community, did a huge disservice to the animals, and you consumers who can't wait to assuage your guilt by spending three times as much on "organic" milk were essentially poisoned too. A lose-lose-lose proposition. These animals are labeled as "free-range" too, a hoax if ever there was.

If you love animals, and you must if you pledge not to eat them, perhaps you should consider the quality of life you have pledged for these animals. There are enough fake cheeses that have improved over the years, Daiya, a cassava based cheese is one that we choose. A plant based diet though will make you not have to ask really silly questions like, is cheese vegetarian, and is this ok. You will know that the Plant Kingdom rules, something even our animal friends can share in agreement.

Why would you want to suckle a different mammal anyhow? Is it bestiality to interrupt and manipulate another animal's reproductive cycle? And if that is the case, if you aren't sure if it's veggie, isn't it at least immoral (assuming you have morals, and you must if you considered the sentience of the animals in considering veggiehood).

Try it out. Go cold turkey for a week w/o dairy products and see if you don't feel better physically and spiritually. If nothing else, you'll give those teats a week off from your fetish.

Go Vegan!
Vegan Pride!

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Posted by kindlizard at 08/02/10 22:21:14

http://www.happycow.net/forum/vegetarian/view_topic.php?id=444

the thread with a link to the Oregon article for any interested.

I think when you ask questions like is it ok, you know it isn't but you are just waiting for others to tell you it is. But since the response is no, are you actually willing to do something about it? If so, I think Johnny, and Gr8vegan and myself will all be happy to help you in your transition, but just read vegan cookbooks, available I'm sure here at HappyCow Merch, and and go cold turkey (rather a cold turkey than a dead one)

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Posted by jive at 08/02/10 22:44:55

"unimaginably arrogant twisted individuals" theres another enjoyable labeling of an entire group of people

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Posted by kindlizard at 08/03/10 12:11:11

jive, your last post has nothing to so w anything. are you concerned about the topic or are you merely interested in twisting someone's words who does obviously care?

I posted two thoughts, any substantive comments on your part? This is not a place for you to quote someone just to have the last word.

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/03/10 19:28:21

Enough so-called veg*n sites & publications are milky / eggy / honey polluted hell holes - please keep HappyCow clean!

If you really feel a need to 'promote' dairy / cow abuse please go elsewhere to do it.

+ + + + + + + +

"Do not turn my father's house into a meat market" - quote from Rynn Berry - paraphrasing Jesus of Nazareth - the Jain / Buddhist influenced & mainly herbivorous fighter for the rights of animals.

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Posted by jive at 08/03/10 20:08:15

well kindlizard, i dont like it when someone refers to the entire group of Lacto and Ovo vegetarians as "unimaginably arrogant twisted individuals". And its quite obvious that JohnnySensible does care, seeing how he is so willing to bash then at every turn...

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/03/10 20:48:19

Stop misquoting me jive.

I used the word 'often' - can you deny that stealing eggs from mother hens & torturing cows, once you have been made fully aware of their suffering, is indeed arrogant & twisted?

Reflect on the name of this site for a second jive - the name is 'HappyCow'.

Your posts are bizarre.

You write - + i hope oneday you realize the sensible thing to do is live in harmony with those around you. +

I have no desire to be in harmony with strange & cruel people jive.

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Posted by Jimbomatic at 08/05/10 09:49:54

I see when Johnny was posed with the fact that he is responsible for thousands of deaths through the use of motor vehicles, he ignored it. See, he thinks HE is the only one that can decide what is humane and what isn't. And the idea that eskimos should move closer to the equator is hilarious! What a ridiculous statement.gr8vegan meanwhile, still insists that vegetarians eat fish.These two Einsteins are certainly doing everything they can to make veganism unattractive and drive people away. Demeaning a whole group of people is hardly the way to sway them.

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Posted by lulubelle at 08/05/10 17:18:06

Wow. I just joined happycow today and I am going to quit. I have no use for a website that does not have members who tolerate other opinions/ beliefs/ practices. Hi and Good-bye. Will continue my vegan journey solo... thank you very much.

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Posted by pradipd at 08/09/10 01:58:03

Cheese is non vegetarian if it is made more rennet derived from animal intestines. HOwever there are many vegetarian cheese available that are made either with no rennet or 'vegetable rennet.

All dairy cows do not end up as hamburgers. This is an extreme view. Dairy is healthy and necessary in many cases and is very much vegetarian since there is no killing involved in deriving milk. One of the most healthy and necessary dairy product, yogurt, is an important by product of dairy. So is honey that is cultivated in annatural way, and there are many sources for this. Like everything else, one has to be a vegetarian with awareness and not just dogmatic rules.

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Posted by Tatiana at 08/09/10 11:16:35

pradipd,

Just some of my thoughts on your comments. Thank you for your input on the topic.

While milking a cow might not be killing it, the dairy system is directly linked to the veal industry (that's how they keep the cows lactating). Also, you should hear the sound of a crying mother cow and calf when they are separated, it even made Anthony Bourdain sad.

Yogurt, and other probiotics, are excellent for your health. There are plenty of non-dairy options for these, such as cultured soy or coconut milk, cultured juices, and even probiotic chocolates.

"Like everything else, one has to be a vegetarian with awareness and not just dogmatic rules." - I like this statement, I agree that it is important to be aware and educate yourself on an individual level, even if I don't agree with your point of view.

Just a note: this information is solely for educational purposes and is in no way to replace an actual medical visit. This website has a wealth of excellent information from a lot of great minds but please remember if you have any medical concerns or needs please see your medical doctor or healthcare provider.

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Posted by jive at 08/09/10 16:39:48

Tatiana, while I applaud mentioning of how calves are kidnapped from thier mothers, only to be cooked as veal (its probably the best argument for giving up dairy that I have ever heard). I can't help but note that many people I have talked to (myself included) when consulting our doctors, are told that we need to consume animal protein. Im not saying we shouldn't listen to doctors, but there are times when we shouldn't everything they say so seriously. If I recall from my history, doctors at one point in time used to perscribe heroin of soothe cold symptoms. *food for though*

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Posted by kindlizard at 08/09/10 21:03:06

Are you just being argumentative or do you honestly believe that? If so, you should educate yourself w Healing w Whole Foods, a book that is listed as the fave books of me and the distinguished webmaster. Dairy is not healthy. You mislead folks by asserting it as such. Animal proteins are not assimilated well and they actually leach the body of its calcium. They find those who intake dairy, supposedly high in calcium for strong and healthy bones, actually have weaker bones bc the outrageously out of balance protein strips calcium from bones and such.

You need to reconsider everything you "learned" from school posters and texts, and other similar sources. The American Dairy Board is a powerful conglomerate and back a lot of misinformation at the expense of your health, the health of the animals, and the expense of the earth. You who come to this site to try to proliferate a dairy agenda are shameful and ought to reconsider your motives before you spread lies and misinformation to assuage your guilt over your poor choices. For more info, see the above post of mine to learn about dairy animals and their owners, or don't if you like being ignorant, misinformed, and hurtful to beautiful sentient creatures. Truth may be too much for you to handle.

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Posted by Welsh at 09/02/10 17:39:42

Hi everyone,
I'm not sure how old this thread is, and i'm sorry for bumping it, but i felt the need to register and post my two cents. I hope that's okay.

In regards to certain attitudes of people on this site, I would say that it is rather upsetting, and rude, how people have responded. Everyone here is on their own paths, trying to journey towards veganism, and that journey may take longer than others. But we are all heading towards the same goal.

I find very disappointing how some self-righteous vegans are here.
Veganism is about non-violence, about compassion. That includes ALL creatures; yes that means PEOPLE as well.
I'd say all of you got the animal rights bit down pat, but as for showing compassion and understanding towards humans, i'd say you need a little more practice.

As a complete outsiders view, I say you have no right to judge another person based on eating habits. They may have their own personal reasons as to why they cannot fully commit. They may have been uneducated about the topic, and frankly, smashing them with abuse is NOT the way to convince anyone, and you are merely fitting the stereotype that all vegans and veggies are like Hitler (yes, he was a vegetarian, as i'm sure we all know).

So, I would just like to say, my honest opinion is that you should show more kindness to people, even if they aren't "perfect" like you pretty little angels are. Veganism isn't just about animals you know.

That's my two cents. Take it or leave it.

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/02/10 19:25:41

Funny that you pre-apologise & then write mostly drivel Welsh!

The dates of the posts are very clearly shown.

About Hitler - do some more research - he seems to have eaten dairy & flesh almost every day of his life.

I also suggest that you read message threads before you add to them.

+ But we are all heading towards the same goal. +

For sure some lactos are transitioning towards 100% vegetarian / plant diets - you will find a great deal of support given here to such individuals.

Many lactos though seem to revel in their cow abuse - perhaps their mothers & sisters tortured them when they were children................
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One very warped lacto fellow whom I know plans to only torture / murder 'a few thousand more cows' - he is now 45 & has stated that he will 'wear his last milky mustache' the night before his 50th birthday - bizarre - somehow I really doubt whether he will make it.

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Posted by jive at 09/03/10 04:10:43

I to have heard that Hitler's vegetarinism was only just a rumor. He may have been place on a plant based diet by his doctors do to his failing health, but reports from his servants indicate that he did infact eat meat during his declining years.

Seriously, google Hitler + vegetarinsm

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Posted by Jimbomatic at 09/03/10 07:39:05

Johnny, you continue to slay me. You have more compassion for animals than you do your fellow human beings.

I agree 100% with Welsh. Everyone has to take their own path.

Really! Do you think that dissing people is the way to help them to see your point of view!

Similarly, consider religions. Do you think that a religious person with a self-righteous attitude helps when proselytizing? It's the exact same thing here.

Speak with facts, not with hate. You give veganism a bad name.

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/03/10 19:47:01

Rynn Berry writes excellently on Hitler.

A quote from Rynn -

"Hitler's asceticism played an important part in the image he projected over Germany. According to the widely believed legend, he neither smoked nor drank, nor did he eat meat or have anything to do with women. Only the first was true. He drank beer and diluted wine frequently, had a special fondness for Bavarian sausages and kept a mistress, Eva Braun, who lived with him quietly in the Berghof. There had been other discreet affairs with women. His asceticism was fiction invented by Goebbels to emphasize his total dedication, his self-control, the distance that separated him from other men. By this outward show of asceticism, he could claim that he was dedicated to the service of his people."

Full article here - http://www.vegsource.com/berry/hitler.html
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Jimbo - wow - you are building up quite an impressive collection of quotes here yourself - what a clever fellow you are!

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Posted by fairygirl25 at 09/04/10 08:49:27

I think this is a very good topic. I love my cheese but cant afford to go vegan so i dont know what to do?

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Posted by lmzeigler at 09/04/10 15:51:42

Hi Fairygirl,
I think you might be surprised that going vegan really isn't all that expensive. I haven't bought cheese in a couple years but I don't remember it being all that cheap. Vegan staples like dried (or even canned) beans, whole grains, rice, tofu, etc. are pretty inexpensive. The more processed vegan foods on the market, like veggie burgers and soy cheese, can get pricey, but it's really best to avoid eating too much of processed items anyhow, for vegans and non-vegans alike. Also, when I go out to dinner with my meat-eating boyfriend, my meal is almost always less expensive then his!
Anyhow, I don't mean to make light of your concerns about money, but I do hope you don't let that issue stop you from giving veganism a try.
Cheers,
Liz

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Posted by Kimmi at 09/08/10 14:13:35

I found this trying to learn about whether there is such a thing as cruelty free cheese and dairy products. I have struggled with guilt over meat eating most of my life and a few weeks ago had a personal epiphany and can no longer eat meat. I thought I might eat poultry but can't do that either. Tried and almost made me sick and did keep me awake for a few more sleepless nights.

I didn't think about not eating cheese/dairy but the dairy industries are so evil that I don't know what to do. Are there any farms in the NYC area where the cows are used to provide dairy where they are treated humanely and where they are not bred w calves used for veal and babes taken at birth? I expect I am heading away from dairy but am still working this through and trying to learn the meaning of certain terms and what they truthfully mean to the animals they apply to.

I made a decision to not eat meat which has quickly presented me with more choices and dilemmas than I anticipated.

I have almost no support in this from anyone in my life and my husband and kids eat meat and cheese, dairy, etc.

For what it's worth, I didn't take the comments above as rude. To the contrary, I found them to be brutally truthful and while some people may squirm, I think brutal truth may be appropriate when you are talking about such a vicious industry and the wanton cruelty that it inflicts on animals every minute of every day.

I

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Posted by VeganBeader at 09/08/10 19:23:40

Hello Kimmi,

Welcome to HappyCow.

I enjoyed reading your post.

Milk produced compassionately is perhaps available in a very few Indian villages, it is certainly not produced in the NYC area, or indeed anywhere in the US.

When you do the maths of caring for cows & all of their offspring until they die from old age any milk which is produced costs multiple times more than the milk from 'farms'.

Some close friends of mine in India finance & run 'goshallas'.

Nowadays even most goshallas are known to be corrupt & have been caught selling cows.

The NYC area is a great place for vegans.

Network & you will meet some great people.

Do you know

supervegan.com/

?

Love.

Stephen the Vegan Beader

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Posted by Kimmi at 09/09/10 08:17:49

Thank you Stephen for your response. I have been reading and will look at the supervegan site you recommended. I suspected as much about not finding truly compassionate dairy. I have been reading through the threads on this board and do think that it is more helpful to people like me when the discussion is candid. Since my choice is moral I can handle the decision about whether or not I will eat dairy and its ramifications. I just want to be clear on true meanings and options.

I find so much to read that is very helpful. Thanks again.

Kim

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Posted by AndyT at 09/09/10 09:39:58

There is cruelty-free 'cheese' that tastes delicious - it's from Switzerland and is called No-Moo-Cheese :-)

Seriously, I have not eaten cheese since I turned vegan a year ago, and the substitutes I tried (e.g. Bute Island Sheese) were only so-so, but that one is great! Even my wife, who normally keeps asking 'if you want to eat cheese, then why do you not eat real cheese?' was ravenous for that one.

Unfortunately, it only seems to be available in Europe at the moment ... http://www.vegusto.com/index-en.html

Best regards,
Andy

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/09/10 21:28:39

Well spotted Andy!

Here is a link straight to the ordering page - http://www.vegi-service.ch/de/shop/shop.php?EUR#G2

Pflanzlicher "Käse" = Vegetable Cheese

The ingredients are -

Zutaten:
Wasser, pflanzliche Öle und Fette, Kartoffelstärke, Reismehl, Nussmus, Getreidemehl, Steinsalz, Carraghenan, Gewürze, Hefe und Hefeextrakt, Aroma (vegetabil), Milchsäure (vegetabil), Farbstoff (Beta-Carotin)

Ingredients:
Water, vegetable oils and fats, potato starch, rice flour, nut mash, grain flour, rock salt, carragheenan, spices, yeast and yeast excerpt, flavour (vegetable), lactic acid (vegetable), coloring material (beta-carotene)

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/09/10 21:36:33

In the US you can buy the super-excellent tasting 'Daiya Cheese'.

Made from -

"Purified water, natural whole ground cassava and/or arrowroot flours, high oleic sunflower and/or safflower and/or identity-preserved high oleic canola oil, coconut oil and/or palm fruit oil, pea protein, salt, inactive yeast, vegetable glycerin, natural vegan flavors (derived from plants), xanthan gum, sunflower lecithin, natural vegan enzymes, natural vegan bacterial cultures, citric acid, natural color. Kind regards, Greg Blake, Daiya Consumer Relations"

Stockists - http://www.daiyafoods.com/where/index.aspx

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Posted by Kimmi at 09/10/10 05:00:00

Thanks for the cheese info. I found this discussion and the one on the thread that spawned this amazingly helpful, Johnnysensible, kindlizard and others do animals a huge service by so vigorously arguing their points.

For what it's worth, if anything:

I came to this site looking for clarification and found it. I recently stopped eating meat and now clearly know that I am through with dairy.

I don't need to wean off of dairy or go through an organic dairy phase. I have eaten cheese and loved dairy forever but am done. It is a choice as others have argued, but I choose to accept the belief that eating dairy (of any sort) is analogous to eating meat. From what I can see the term organic has more to do with what is ingested by the animal and consequently, will be ingested by people and little to do with the animal and its misery and suffering/welfare. The term "free range" is little better and easily manipulated and "pastured" possibly a hair better but ultimately meaningless.

I am one of those people who has mindlessly purchased these products thinking i was doing something kind and humane but looking no further than the surface. My blinders are off.

I have clarity on many points and I truly thank the people who argue the truth here for what they say. It has helped me to reach a decision that I am very happy about and at ease with. I kept getting ambiguous and murky answers elsewhere and information about dairy and its role in vegetarianism/veganism.

I don't think anyone who comes to this site looking for information needs to be coddled if they are attempting to make a change and learn about vegetarianism and veganism.

I came looking to learn about whether there is a place to purchase cheese/dairy from compassionate farmers -- it seems not so I can do without dairy. It is far more helpful to me to be able to make my choices than to have been told I can be vegetarian while eating dairy. Perhaps I can technically eat dairy by *a* definition but it seems I cannot meaningfully be vegetarian if I eat dairy since my goals are related to animal welfare and are not personal health directed (that is an incidental benefit to me of veganism). I am still learning but my goals are focused.

Cest la vie. better for me and far better for the cows;)

Thanks for the candid information.

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Posted by kindlizard at 09/10/10 12:06:00

Kimmi,
That is worth all the nonsense we have to wade through in itself. Thank you and you are welcome. I bet you feel better in every way.

Ditto the Daiya cheese. My sweet nephew got nervous eating Daiya first and told his dad that he accidentally got the moo cheese. It melts better than any other vegan cheese and is easy on the belly. Good stuff.

Please feel free to pm me if you have any questions or concerns regarding your transition. HC is a grat site for it, there are a lot of recipes and such here.

I am so glad to hear you say you didn't need to be coddled. A lot of past arguments were that honesty would be too much, as if folks want to have to sift through hours and long posts and threads of beating around the bush. I find your take refreshing, especially considering what you are taking is what we've been giving. Awesome.

Good times rising.
Vegan pride!

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Posted by aveganjourney at 09/11/10 11:01:07

Ditto the Daiya Mozz cheese. It is awesome.

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Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/20/10 07:55:36

"For the past fifteen years I have been an abstainer from flesh-meats. Not a vegetarian, because during the whole of that period I have used such animal produce as butter, cheese, eggs, and milk." - Anna Kingsford MD, writing in the Preface to her 'Dreams and Dreams Stories' in 1886 - ......not at all confused.
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Source - http://www.ivu.org/history/vegetarian.html

More - http://www.ivu.org/history/kingsford/

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Posted by groovychick at 03/09/12 09:52:46

Some cheese has rennet in it which is made from the lining in cows' stomachs.

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Posted by Sweetsop at 03/12/12 10:45:19

If you are lacto-vegetarian, you should may try go to a kosher shop and ask them for cheese, they have lot of variations with out rennet. I think they also have vegan cheese, but i never ask them yet..
in my country (Uruguay) only the cheese for sandwich and ricotta are 100% vegetarian.

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