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How come there seems to be almost an animosity between vegetarians and vegans?

I have stated I am a new vegetarian and there have been some difficult changes to deal with, but I am trying.

I first did this for health reasons, and then as I read more, I started to realize how bad animals were treated.

I have come across vegans on boards (I admit not this one) who seem to feel that vegetarian is not enough.

Isn't it a start?

Responses (32)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by SynthVegan at 12/26/07 23:56:22

    I'm Vegan and respect you more than anything. Yeah, you still eat dairy, but in time that may change. It's awesome that you've chosen to give up meat, you save several lives a year while making a HUGE contribution to your health and also, your conscience. Good luck!

  • Ventguy's avatar
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    Posted by Ventguy at 12/27/07 12:40:05

    I appreciate the kind words. I am glad you said that it MAY change but for now, I am happily veggie. :)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by mothersson2002 at 12/27/07 23:39:37

    Dear Ventguy,
    I too am a loyal ovo vegetarian but not vegan. I have been a vegetarian for about 15 years and so has my son. It is wonderful that there are vegetarians of all types for animals are saved because of less demand.It is difficult to please everyone.Many Meat eaters do not understand why people would not consume meat and some vegetarians are in agreement about the various choices within that diet/ lifestyle.Well,that fact that vegetarians of all types are saving animals and in effect showing their concern for them puts the differences between types of vegetarians in perpective. We're all making a postive contribution to the lives of animals!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Healthy at 12/28/07 16:37:53

    I think it's a great start! Congratulations!

    I was vegetarian for 21 years before becoming vegan three months ago.

    I have no animosity towards vegetarians or meat eaters because part of being vegan is striving for ahimsa (love/peace for all beings) ...

    I only get mad when I'm confronted in a negative way for MY choice of being vegan (like co-workers picking on my lunch, people constantly asking me about protein and "what do you eat" ... I'm working on good, firm answers though :)



  • Ventguy's avatar
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    Posted by Ventguy at 12/28/07 17:15:12

    Isn't it funny that if a non-vegetarian is run down or feeling sick at work the answer is "oh you must have caught a bug or the flu" but if you are vegetarian or vegan "Oh it's your diet"

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by AlmostVeggie at 12/28/07 23:09:25

    I joined another forum (which shall remain nameless) and got treated like crap because I told them I was becoming a vegetarian and they ignored me or said "if you really cared about animals you'd be a vegan". Nice to know these boards aren't filled with pompous asses.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by atrevh at 01/10/08 16:54:47

    Hi there ventguy and all.
    Congratulation on you decision. I am an almost-vegan raw vegetarian, hehehehe.
    Well, Just 3 months ago I decided to go and change my diet to vegetarian. But I actually do not eat meat, nor eggs or dairy. But here in Mexico, some times there are no vegan options when eating out. So, it is quite difficult at work, hehehe, always putting some stress on the restaurant chefs, "please, take the chicken out of my salads and put some sprouts or veggies instead ..." I wish we had more vegan options here. And well, I am trying to eat raw. All this began because I hear something about the ph of the blood and how to become alkaline, and then read Robert Youngs Ph miracle book, its really interesting. Then, now been vegetarian, i have been thinking on the animal treatment issue, and well, its a shame. But I think it is a procces. I first gave up cigarrettes, then alcohol, then meat and eggs and dairy. My biggest challenge is to give up sugar!. But I am trying. I also two years ago bought myself five sheep, to breed and eat in special ocation and because a like animals. Hehehehe, but they became my pets instead. Any way, good for you and God bless you all. bye bye.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by dirtandskirts at 01/17/08 17:55:57

    First off, thanks for being honest and open about this stuff, because it is a real issue. Asking "what's up with this?" is far more effective than going "I hate vegans because they're all mean." (I'm surprised johnnysensible hasn't found this thread yet...) Heck yes there is sometimes animosity, though its intensity and expression (and presence!) vary widely.

    Here's where I'm coming from: I went vegetarian in steps during high school and college, cutting out a few things at a time. I went "real vegetarian" (no more fish; fish is not a vegetable) in 2003, and vegan on New Year's 2006 (aside from a few lame unvegan choices during a year living in France -- I haven't eaten unvegan in the US since 2005).

    At this point, I consider myself an ethical vegan, meaning while I don't discount the enormous health and environmental benefits of my choices, my primary concern is living in accordance with my principles: among other things, I am interested in fighting all oppression against all living beings (e.g. racism, sexism, speciesism), and firmly believe that we must include animals among those beings. And here's where it gets tricky: I believe it is unethical to unnecessarily harm another living being, whether for taste, tradition, convenience, or any other reason (stated in another way, I don't care if someone's nice to their slaves; I don't want them to have slaves in the first place). And all animal products harm and kill animals, whether or not the end result (a body) is on our plate. Thus, from an ethical perspective, vegetarianism is a midpoint, not a final answer. Recently, on an all-vegan forum I frequent, this was expressed as "vegetarianism has its place as a stepping stone (it is, after all, how many of us arrived at veganism), but is a crappy end-game choice," which nicely sums up how I feel. (Please note that I am being straight-up honest here -- you asked for answers/perspectives and that's what I want to give you. If I randomly met you on the street or in a cafe, chances are I'd go about this differently.)

    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm inclined to agree that yes, many vegans were at some point vegetarians, and most of them were also at some point omnivores. And I think that's where some of this animosity comes from -- vegans at some point came to realize that they couldn't support what they were participating in, and there is nothing like the frustration of knowing that you willingly participated in something you didn't agree with, and nothing will take that back. That's really difficult to deal with. On this point, I think a mixture of guilt, along with a feeling of "if I came to this conclusion, so can/should you"/"in hindsight, these things are so self-evident" comes into play.

    These are POWERFUL feelings. And I think there tends to be a sense that vegetarians have gotten the idea about ethics/health/environment and taken it partway, while regarding it as "doing everything possible." Even if many of them might not feel that way (it's hard to generalize large groups), mainstream media, PETA (ugh), and other related groups frequently portray things this way, marginalizing vegans, further ostracizing them, and making them look irrational, overzealous, deprived, what-have-you -- especially in comparison with vegetarians (who oftentimes already seem weird enough). As a vegan, this is intensely irritating. (Do I think that *all* vegans are sane? No, I think there are crazies in every group, but I think that, by and large, vegans are a reasonable group of people.)

    Also, vegans, generally if not always, do indeed feel that vegetarianism is not enough -- after all, that's the conclusion *they've* come to, which is why they're vegan. The difference is in how they express that; what they do with it. Some will take every opportunity to tell you how wrong you are (I have met a number of them, and indeed, they kept me from considering veganism for a while). Some will never bring it up. Some fall somewhere in between.

    I'm probably in the latter group -- I respect the choices of others, though I may not agree with or condone them, which is an incredibly difficult line to toe. (One of the ways to get me riled up, however, is by spouting misleading propaganda [which is different than just eating a vegetarian diet]. From a vegan point of view, it's really frustrating when people describe egg-and-dairy cookies or cheese pizza as "cruelty-free," because it's not true.) And while I understand the frustration which a lot of (not all) vegans feel toward vegetarians, I also feel that there are appropriate and inappropriate ways to express that. On the aforementioned all-vegan forums (veganfreak, for the curious), I see tons of passion of all stripes. Some of it is angry passion, and frankly, I am so glad that it can be expressed in a safe space so that we can go out and be decent people (mostly) the rest of the time. It drives me nuts when the same things are expressed in places where they can't be either treated as plain ol' rants or dealt with constructively, without antagonizing others.

    In summary, because once again I went and got all loquacious:
    - yes there's animosity
    - some of it might come from lingering guilt
    - some of it might come from vegans who feel that vegetarians undermine or contradict their message
    - I'm vegan and I still don't like jerks, and I'm not alone in that
    - yes vegetarianism is an awesome start, and if you're looking at it as a start, then I have a high five for you!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/17/08 21:33:19

    Ouch !

    You are hitting me below the belt Ms. "dirtandskirts" Liene ! - you "violent vegan" !

    People who are dairy / egg physically addicted deserve respect & assistance.

    People who "get off" on throwing gourmet eggy & cheesy food into their mouths & bragging about it on HappyCow - ain't my type of people at all !

    I have been crazy busy with visiting customers for the past few weeks - also "New Years Resolutions" have meant fewer restaurant visits.

    PETA - full respect - full support - no group is 100% perfect but they "get the job done".

    More posts will follow !

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 01/18/08 13:09:51

    johnnysensible - "People who are dairy / egg physically addicted deserve respect & assistance."

    People who "get off" on throwing gourmet eggy & cheesy food into their mouths & bragging about it on HappyCow - ain't my type of people at all !"

    haha, you are too awesome with words johnny! These boards would be missing so much without you here! It would be cool to meet you in person sometime.


    dirtandskirts - well said girl! I think you shared a wonderful message in your post. I don't like jerks either, regardless of what or who they are eating. I am more of the mind of helping others and accepting people for who they are and helping to guide them to a better place. I have appreciated people like that in my life and like to pay that forward. One of the most influential vegans in my life was a coworker of mine (if she reads this she'll know I'm talking about her, blush, hope she doesn't see it) who was an amazing influence in that she shared her passion and knowledge with me without getting angry, degrading me, or pushing any of her beliefs on me. I have been on a long road of back and forth with vegetarianism anyway, but I think getting to know her has really affected me in a totally awesome way. Ventguy, I'm still on my journey as well (I did go vegan for a while but slipped back) but I see it as just that, a journey. Where we stand now is just one step in the journey, not an impasse. I wish you the best of luck in your journey as well.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/18/08 22:26:01

    "The Animals Revenge" - the symptoms
    .
    When you start to look like / feel like "Mr Blobby" & you have "low self esteem" issues & bouts of paranoia you know that it is time to immediately forget about your current "life game" of cow & chicken abuse & switch to a plant based diet / time for a major detox.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    http://www.thelighthousewebworld.com/revenge.htm

    Excerpt -

    "The Animals' Revenge: After the expense of raising animals, we eat them, and they kill us. Eating kills 2 out of 3 people in the Western world. Eating is the biggest cause of disease, disability and death in the West today. Human bodies can't handle animal and dairy products. A diet based on animal and dairy products is suicidal. Prehistoric man ate over 800 varieties of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds and grain. This is the diet we have evolved to eat. Meat, dairy and fish became affordable in the 20th century. We switched from a plant-based diet to an animal based one."
    .
    Visit the site to read more.
    .


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by dirtandskirts at 01/19/08 03:24:06

    johnnysensible: hi-YA! (That's a hand-chop noise in case you were wondering.) And I resent the implication that there is anything violent about my internet actions! :)

    On less jokey matters, if you really want to get into why I think PETA is problematic sometime, I can't say I'd be glad to, but I'd certainly be willing. I'm coming from an abolitionist perspective with regard to animal agriculture, and have little to no tolerance for welfarist groups/campaigns. Gary Francione's interview with Bob and Jenna Torres touches nicely on this (http://veganfreakradio.com/index.php?id=82). Francione's an intelligent, well-educated, well-read, and well-spoken man, anyway, but the whole thing is peppered with bits that made me laugh, gave me new information, and better articulated some views I had already. There are also some terrifying snippets about Newkirk et al. in the Torres's interview with Nathan Winograd (http://veganfreakradio.com/index.php?id=127), author of "Redemption: The Myth of Pet Overpopulation and the No Kill Revolution in America." He's doing incredible work and enabling/encouraging others to do the same, and the criticisms he gets and where he gets them from are more than a little worrisome if you care about animals. (I swear I am not the Torres's lackey; they're just frequent visitors on my iPod and I find it to be good vegan edutainment, if colorful language doesn't offend you -- though the interviews above are mellow on the curse words, I think.)

    tatiana: Nothing like meeting good influences! Living with a group of people that included one awesome vegan was a huge part of why I decided to take the plunge. If someone had told me it'd be so easy and such a blast I probably would've done so sooner, but I think that sometimes things just need a chance to incubate.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/19/08 06:57:04

    "Unfortunately these people aren't like vegan or anything...." - Jenna Torres speaking at the end of the Nathan J. Winograd interview - Torres is talking about some highly selective "animal lovers" whom she knows who help out in a mythical "no kill" shelter - where in reality they are indirectly responsible for torturing & killing farmed animals every single day - especially cows.
    .
    To me the Torres' are "not playing with a full deck" - they come from a strange sub-group of vegan's who vociferously support "green" puppy farms / the "green" pet industry & the continuous torture & killing of farmed animals to feed "adorable" pets.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Nathan J. Winograd - great talker - again "missing a few cards from the deck".
    .
    Trap, neuter, release is a superb program.
    .
    "Progressive Shelters" - tricky, very tricky - as mentioned already they buy / demand massive amounts of animal carcasses from factory farms.
    .
    "Kill Some - Love Some" is a such an easy fundraising angle in the "meaty" world.
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    "Torture & kill the farm animals - keep the cuddly cute domesticated cats & dogs alive."
    .
    http://www.nokilladvocacycenter.org/declaration-no-kill.html
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    Stated values - "Whereas, the right to live is every animal's most basic and fundamental right;".
    .
    So why does Winograd want money, money, money to buy so much meat?
    .
    Winograd claims to be an "ethical vegan" but in reality he is simply another little darling / a puppet of the meat & dairy industry - perhaps he cannot see this himself - other people can.
    .
    "The masses" are blissfully happy to find uses for the cuts of meat / offal that they do not want to eat themselves.
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    "Later on we will expand to save all animals" - classic Winograd - this is the punch line of all "Kill Some - Love Some" groups worldwide.
    .
    "The masses" love to hear Winograd knocking PETA / HSUS.
    .
    PETA do wonderful work in promoting humane eating & fighting farmed / domesticated animal abuse.
    .
    About HSUS I have no experience.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Gary Francione - I listened to that audio last year with the Torres'- Francione certainly appeals some people - to me some Francione is a super intelligent "whiner & winger".



  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/19/08 07:48:05

    CCF "Big Meat" - interviewing Winograd - http://community.dog.com/forums/p/10320/463176.aspx
    .............................................
    .............................................
    Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: PETA Ann Berlin, 1 of the 9 ALF Webmasters

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In addition to being slammed by the Astroturf group Center for Consumer Freedom, and No-Kill Shelter advocate Nathan Winograd,

    In the past week, PETA has:

    Publicized Israeli undercover footage taken at the Weizmann Institute of monkeys and cats being tortured and began a campaign to reduce American funding of this abuse.

    Distributed approximately a half ton of bagged straw for dog owners to use as bedding in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia.

    Distributed free doghouses to unsheltered dogs kept outside. (Yes, dogs should not be kept outdoors in freezing weather, but the ones who are can be provided with shelter even while attempts are made to get them proper shelter.)

    Provided approximately 125 low-cost spay/neuter surgeries through it's SNIP program.

    Promoted spay/neuter by tying in Jamie Lynn Spears' pregnancy to hobby-breeding of companion animals ensuring that the issue would receive major attention in the media.

    Responded to Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey circus whistleblower who reported elephant trainer injury in the circus. Publicized incident and filed complaint with USDA.

    Posted large billboard in Times Square in New York City opposing horse drawn carriage trade.

    Convinced restaurant chain Denny's to end their partnership with Ringling Circus.

    Posted photographs, documentation and contact info for the ten worst CEO's of pharmaceutical companies that test on animals.

    Got arts and crafts superstore AC Moore to stop selling animal skins.

    Drove web traffic to vegetarian issues by releasing humorous vegetable debate video.

    Disrupted the Hong Kong fashion show to object to use of fur.

    Continued applying pressure to PetSmart to drop live animal sales after their voluntary cessation of sales due to bird disease.

    Publicized spay/neuter issues at the Adult Entertainment Awards in Las Vegas by releasing Ron Jeremy ad "Too much sex can be a bad thing."

    Purchased cemetery plot and installed grave marker nearby Colonel Sanders grave with an acrostic clearly stating: KFC Tortures Birds.

    Pointed out similarity between human and animal flesh by asking that arrested alleged cannibal be put on vegetarian diet.

    Garnered publicity for vegetarianism and factory farming by asking that Yankees pitcher Roger Clemens (the latest player to face scrutiny in the steroids scandal), go drug free by becoming vegetarian.

    Announced awards for progressive, animal-friendly companies and leaders garnering publicity for vegetarianism and reduction of animal use in consumer products.

    Based on PETA complaints, Metrolina Wildlife Park in NC was fined by USDA and got their license suspended.

    Followed political candidates in pig costumes demanding that meat be taxed as unhealthy.

    Got International personal-care company L'Occitane to abandon animal testing.

    Offered information to municipal agencies and media about precautions to take for cats and dogs during cold weather.

    Conducted email action alerts to:

    - get Tarkan, Turkish rock singer, to abandon fur
    - get Pet Supplies Plus to abandon small animal sales
    - urge Egyptian government to abandon animal cull
    - urge San Francisco Zoo to close its tiger exhibit after death of human and tiger
    - urge New York City to stop horse drawn carriages

    +++++++

    During this same week:

    Nathan Winograd ( http://www.nathanwinograd.com/):

    -publicized sales of his book.

    -posted a blog against PETA

    - spoke on KDWA AM 1460 in Minneapolis

    During this same week:

    The Center for Consumer Freedom:

    -attacked any attempt to establish laws regulating portion size, labeling or the places where food can be sold or eaten

    - criticized "Creating crimes out of harmless behavior" such as banning unhealthy foods in school cafeterias, regulating the use of air-conditioning in California, taxing soft drinks in SF, and establishing federal limits on salt content of foods

    - released one press release re. PETA's shelter stats
    _________________
    Ann Berlin, 1 of the 9 ALF Webmasters

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/19/08 07:59:07

    Sorry - this is the link to the post above - http://www.animalrightsdiscussion.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=54877&sid=46149442afd1ca135effba9a797b0c44
    .............................................
    .............................................
    Richard (Ric) Berman / CCF thread on HappyCow - http://www.happycow.net/forum/vegetarian/view_topic.php?id=95
    .............................................
    .............................................
    http://news.bestfriends.org/index.cfm?page=news&mode=entry&entry=75108A12-BDB9-396E-95C8FB907EDDB375
    .
    A heavily pro-Winograd / anti PETA & HSUSarticle - with a great \"sting\" added by ruthy92 -

    September 15, 2007 : 4:15 PM ET
    posted by: ruthy92

    The truth came out. The CCF, a hunting & meat & vivisection & circus & puppy mill & dog fighter lobbying group, is now publicly promoting Nathan Winograd and No Kill.
    See consumerdeception.com for more on Rick Berman and his CCF Center for Consumer Freedom

    Rick also lobbies for Big Tobacco and the liquor industry.

    Dog breeders connected to CCF are promoting Nathan Winograd and no kill as representing their interests and incomes (and that includes AKC breeders, as the AKC now makes the bulk of its income from registering puppy mill dogs.)

    To say I am disappointed is an understatement.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/19/08 08:14:39

    The Nathan Winograd - "Big Meat" / CCF / Richard (Rick) Berman love affair - http://www.consumerfreedom.com/article_detail.cfm/article/183
    .
    http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/3444
    .
    Winograd - by teaming up with CCF - has shown himself to be probably the most stupid "ethical vegan" alive today.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by dirtandskirts at 01/19/08 16:04:22

    "To me the Torres' are "not playing with a full deck" - they come from a strange sub-group of vegan's who vociferously support "green" puppy farms / the "green" pet industry & the continuous torture & killing of farmed animals to feed "adorable" pets."

    In their own home, their dogs are vegan. The issue of what to feed shelter animals, on the other hand, is indeed a serious one, if that's what you're getting at (I admit I have no idea what "green puppy farms" and the "green pet industry" are), but I don't think the solution is to kill more adoptable animals (and then blame the public for not being responsive to organizations that belittle them). I would venture that, like Francione, they would love to see the end of animals raised for human purposes -- including companionship -- but feel that we have a duty to care for those who are in the world *right now* (which is why they're vegan, which is why they help other people go vegan, which is why their dogs are vegan).

    Your posts in this thread prove to me, more than anything else (except perhaps your passion?), the power of language -- especially when used selectively. Just as CCF (which is full of deceptive jerks) asks some weenie and oftentimes leading questions of Winograd, comparing all the best actions of a large organization such as PETA (within a single week??) with a single man is ludicrous, as is berating someone for promoting a book they recently published about a subject they believe in (especially when the ideas themselves are available online for free).

    Just because Winograd talked with CCF doesn't mean he supports them; the fact that they're so gleeful about it is troubling, but let us remember that sharing an enemy doesn't need to make two parties friends (despite what CCF might be trying to portray). It's one thing for CCF and dog breeders (&çé"è§!!) to say they agree with/support Winograd; it would be another thing *entirely* for Winograd to say the same for them -- *that's* what would chill my blood. I am missing, too, his pleas for money -- on the contrary, he stresses that his ideas are freely available, and that he would love to see them used as widely as possible by anyone who wants them.

    As for PETA and HSUS, I find it troubling that their directors come from a history of shelter leadership that includes alarmingly high kill rates -- especially PETA's Newkirk. Any organization that supports (for instance) mass extermination of stray cats over a TNR policy is not going to get my support. I also find it deeply disturbing that they're giving awards to people like Temple Grandin, who are all about "nicer killing," which, let's be honest, is NOT done to be nice, but rather to protect and improve the economic interests of animal exploiters, and make consumers feel better about "happy meat" and its ilk. This should bother you intensely, johnny, as it makes people who otherwise might look seriously at vegetarianism and veganism think it's okay to exploit and kill animals, as long as it's done in a "humane" way. (Unnecessary killing, as we are well aware, is, however, inherently inhumane.)

    My main problems with PETA are that it promotes vegetarianism but frequently shies away from or de-emphasizes veganism (and as I've stated before, I don't think vegetarianism works as an end unto itself), that it makes much of the animal movement look positively ridiculous, that it encourages oppression of one group when it thinks that might help its message with another, and that it is all about welfarist measures which ultimately just help animal agriculture exploit animals more efficiently and more profitably (and also that their "vegan list" of common grocery items is NOT VEGAN). Do I think everything they've done is bad? No, on the contrary, but I do believe that, overall, their approach is at best schizophrenic.

    Thanks, as always, for what you bring to these discussions. It tires me out but it educates me. :)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by SynthVegan at 01/19/08 16:10:29

    I just briefly skimmed this posting... My conclusion: Can we all agree not to name people like this [and please, let's not argue]? They're automatically going to become defensive, it's a natural reaction. Everyone is different and they're all going to have a different viewpoint than your own… I'm Vegan and non-militant, but I accept that there are going to be ones who are. Someone on this forum sent me a message in regards to militant Vegans and what I thought about the topic [see my answer below].

    Well I'm on the same page as you are. Although I'm Vegan, I do understand that it's tough to make that transition. The important thing is that people are being conscientious about the consequences of their diet [to their selves as well as animals], and making gradual changes from there. Once someone stops eating meat they save 95+ lives a year! I'll be happy with that if someone has a hard time going Vegan. I think that some people are just snooty about some things; whereas, they think they're better than everyone else because they're Vegan. It makes me wonder if they have or had self esteem issues growing up or even now. Furthermore, those people are going to "turn off" people who are on the fence regarding the diet, which hinders their overall objective [also makes me wonder if their objective is in line with what they say it is]. :)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by AlmostVeggie at 01/19/08 21:22:55

    I made an attempt to go Vegan about 4 years ago. It backfired and I ended up eating nothing but egg salad and peanut butter honey sandwhiches for a week. I've lurked around the PETA2 site which is aimed at veggie high school and college kids and some of the people on there are very, shall we say, elitist when it comes to views on veganism.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/19/08 22:28:30

    Hi synthebm

    When being "active" one simply cannot avoid naming names.

    Who started it? - it simply does not matter - the "chicken or the egg" question will never be resolved.

    Winograd & Francione are both "bottom feeders" - their audiences are the meat eating / pet loving majority who relish seeing discord amongst vegans - plus of course all other PETA / HSUS haters - I call them "twisted vegan's".

    Sure I disagree with some of PETA's strategies / campaigns - already this year I have called PETA S. E. Asia with positive suggestions about one campaign that they were proposing for Hong KOng.

    I fully understand when someone who respects animals loudly abuses the US Govt. - the FDA - factory farming etc. - when I hear someone abusing PETA - HSUS or other active groups which do fight for animal rights I straight away look for their real / hidden agenda.

    All to often it turns out to be "envy" - envy that PETA - HSUS are so expert at PR & at fundraising.

    Mixed in with their denigration of PETA - HSUS they cry about the fact that they themselves cannot find supporters / cannot raise funds so effectively.

    The really sick option is "copping out" & creating another "Kill Some - Love Some" group such as Winograd has done with - http://www.nokilladvocacycenter.org - with flowery, wordy websites - with the hope that money will pour in before too many people notice that they are actually major meat consumers themselves.

    When you look at such groups closely you find that their actions hurt many more animals than they help - so they must be opposed.

    I am in Hong Kong / Asia - I do not see either dog's or cat's really "thriving" when they are kept as peoples pets.

    Trap, neuter, release works very well - but only for feral cats & dogs.

    A close friend of mine rescues abused domesticated dogs & cats - she finds new homes for nearly all of them - as a vegan she finds it very hard to justify buying the corpses of factory farmed animals every day for the dogs which no-one wants to adopt / cannot be trained to hunt for their own food.

    It is very, very hard to keep a dog healthy on a vegan diet - I cannot begin to comprehend why some vegan's inflict a veqan diet on dogs.

    Dog's are carnivores.

    A human can perversely choose to be a carnivore.

    A domesticated dog, forced to be a vegan, has few opportunities to run away & catch rats.

    I do hope that the Torres' dogs do not suffer too many health problems.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/19/08 22:48:02

    Hey AlmostVeggie

    Sure some PETA people are elitist - we live in mad times - all of us have our own "trips".

    Myself - one day after many years of dairy addiction I decided to make "vegan" / "plant based" eating into a "habit".

    Whenever I passed a shop on my way to my office I would buy some fruit & some good looking veggies & some breads.

    I hate wasting food so I would have to cut & eat them.

    When my hunger was satisfied with fruits & veggies I could much more easily leave behind the "convenient" foods such as yoghurts / cheeses that I was fully addicted to eating for too many years.

    i had a tough time for many weeks - crazy cravings for Brie & Camembert.

    Better health / better body odour are great rewards for my persistence.

    One day I may decide to kick my wholemeal bread addiction.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/19/08 23:27:26

    dirtandskirts,

    You accuse me of being "selective" / "biased" - when you have some available time please do show me where I am mistaken.

    I do not expect any organization to be "perfect" - I am always encouraged to see successes / to read good news - however small the perceived / achieved changes may be.

    Winograd has crossed too many lines - he is promoting a book / promoting "solutions" which fit "hand in glove" with the factory farming of animals - especially the factory farming of cows - this is HappyCow.net - a site which strongly opposes the torture & murder of cows.

    Winograd's "solutions" fully depend on there being a constant supply of low priced offal / animal scraps from cruel slaughter houses - so that people can continue to feed their "pets".

    The Torres' provide a way for Winograd to broadcast his twisted solutions / his denigration of PETA - HSUS.

    Sorry my friend - to me all of that really, really "sucks".

    No-one that I have ever personally met who has euthanized / killed an animal has ever "enjoyed" doing it.

    Your criticism of Ingrid Newkirk does not make pleasant reading. I am sending a link for this thread to her to see whether she wants to respond.

    You may like to do the same for your friends the Torres' & for Winograd.

    .............................................

    If there are errors on PETA's vegan list they will correct them - once someone clearly points out the errors to the right person at PETA.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/21/08 13:33:31

    I became a lacto-vegetarian earlier today.

    I accepted piece of chocolate from a good friend without looking closely enough at the ingredient listing.

    I have a slight headache this evening.

    Is there a "self testing kit" for CJD that anyone can recommend?

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 01/21/08 14:13:08

    Yeah, if you start getting crazy, forgetting stuff, acting like you have rabies, then you're screwed!

    What was in the chocolate, whey, casein, both? Your body will definitely let you know when something foreign has gotten in!

    Speaking of CJD, did you read about that new pig disease in Veg News? They are testing it but won't release the results.....

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/21/08 20:11:29

    Milk - "May contain traces of milk & nuts" - this morning I woke up with cramp in my left leg - I am almost certain that I have CJD.
    .
    .
    Be very careful of "Whizzo Chocolates" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy6uLfermPU
    .
    .
    VegNews - yes - it is hard to believe that people actually eat "Pork Chocolates" - so gross!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/22/08 04:51:54

    BBC News - Monday, 21 June, 2004

    Pork choc on the menu in Ukraine

    Excerpt's -
    "It's salty on the inside and very sweet on the outside. It's unusual yes, but it's completely disgusting," says Dasha Khabarova.
    .
    ................according to Dr Svetlana Fus from the Kiev Medical Research Centre.

    "It's the worst combination you could have. I think that people should steer clear of the Ukrainian Snickers."
    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3825221.stm

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by brandonak81 at 01/22/08 11:07:35

    My new years resolution for 2006 was to become a vegetarian...what triggered it you ask? A BUMPER STICKER! It said 'Vegetarian....because I know better'. It hit me, that I too know better, but was choosing not to act on my knowledge. So I did my research and started cold turkey on the vegan bandwagon. Talk about hard...especailly in ARKANSAS! Not too many vegan friendly eateries here. We do have a Whole Foods, thank goodness. Eventually I started to work in eggs and dairy....mainly just cheese on my pizzas and italian food. I do realize the terrible things associated with dairy for my body as well as the animals, and its hard not to look at myself as a hypocrite. I have no excuses and I don't make any. All I can do is try to cut back and eat less and less. What does get under my skin are the vegetarians that will go so far as to tell others to DRINK MILK for protien! HELLO?? Are you serious? We are on here to better ourselves and be productive in our veggieism. I am the first to tell you that I eat cheese every once in a while...but I will not be the one to tell you its good for you!

    As for my pooches(Jack Russell and a min. Dachsund), I realize that it is hard to find vegan or veg. food and would be hard for them to thrive on it....but I do feed them Wellness fish and sweet potato, which I find slightly less carnivoric (if thats a word).

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Healthy at 01/22/08 12:53:33

    Brandon, I love those types of dogs ... you must share photos with us -- pretty please :)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 01/22/08 21:26:00

    brandonak81 - great post - all power to you!
    .
    Bumper Stickers - I love them!
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    "Be extreme"
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    In London during the 80's friends & I used to always keep a stock of Viktoras Kulvinskas' very crazy looking pro-wheatgrass bumper stickers to distribute.
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    Each time that our supplies started getting low we would either, send some cash to Viktoras for some more, or for emergency top-ups we would phone to John Davidson of WRC to buy a few packs.
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    (John now maintains one of the best cancer info resources on the Internet - http://www.self-helpcancer.org/)
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    I clearly remember just how many times I was called "insane" for eating / growing / selling wheatgrass & beansprouts back them.
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    I smile now when I see wheatgrass in so many of the juice bars in Hong Kong - especially in the "shiny" / franchised ones.
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    Dogs
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    The healthiest dogs in my community are the ones which have bones to chew on.
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    The very few vegan / TVP fed dogs that I have come across over the years really "worried" me - in much the same way that TVP addicted vegan / veggy friends do.
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    Too far away from nature!
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    I hate to see my friends / their dogs getting really sick simply because they are eating ignorantly.
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    The adult human's have the freedom make their own crazy dietary choices.
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    The dog's do not.
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    When I notice friends stuffing their children with - "Soybean Protein Hydrolysate" - "Vegetable Oil" I send them email links to Dr McDougall!
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    http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/april/050400pusoy.htm
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    Excerpt -
    .
    "The Whole Is Healthier Than the Parts
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    Over the past two decades there has been an explosion on the supermarket shelves of soy products that resemble our favorite meat and dairy products. I often refer to these as "fake foods." Manufacturing processes remove the dietary fibers, carbohydrates, fats, vitamins, minerals, and hundreds of other helpful plant chemicals – leaving behind almost pure soy protein.
    .
    These protein concentrates are mixed with extracts of wheat protein, vegetable oils, and sometimes, starch, sugar, salt, artificial sweeteners, and dairy and egg proteins – then the magic of modern technology turns these mixtures into products that look and taste like real cheese, hot dogs, sausages, burgers, luncheon meats, chicken, and turkey. Soy protein is used to replace dairy protein in candy bars, yogurt, ice cream, breads, pastries and cookies. You can identify the synthesized concentrated proteins on the ingredient list of your foods by these words: defatted soy flour, organic textured soy flour, textured vegetable protein, isolated soy protein, soy protein concentrates, and soy concentrates. These new "foods" in no way resemble nature's creations and the effects on your health make that clear."
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    .
    .
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    Yes I do know that we advertize the stuff on the HappyCow Homepage - I am sending a note to Webmaster Eric to maybe add a "Health Warning" !
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    Such as -
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    "Think before you eat. Must not be fed to young children & mentally challenged individuals. They may sue you later."
    .

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by katinjap at 02/06/08 21:03:51

    Excellent reponses - I think both vegetarians and vegans have made great points on how they feel about each other.I kind of always thought we mutually-respected one another, until I read a blog post by a vegan yesterday which offended me, and for the first time I thought negatively of vegans. I am sure this was the opposite effect that the post was suppossed to have on me, and it didn't last long. It was a reminder to me, as a vegetarian/aspiring vegan not to look down on my friends choices, and always be encouraging of the small changes they make, rather than focus negatively on what they're not doing. You guys have helped wash away that negative feeling I had, thanks. I am happy to know that vegetarians and vegans can sometimes be on the same page!
    I don't have any vegan friends, but would wish I did as firsthand inspiration. I think the right people can encourage and help you make good choices, but being too militant (for want of a better word) can have the opposite effect...

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by nontoxic at 02/07/08 14:26:50

    I had noticed right away, the animosity.Just by looking for a cute t-shirt to make a statement. Hard to find one that says yea vegetation! but plenty of sites for vegan wear. Not sure why there a veggie haters? we are all working on the same basic cause. To live healthier and make a statement about animal rights. not to mention the crap that our food is laced with!!! I am an "organic" Vegetarian since Sept. 2007. We are suppose to be peaceful people...take out the hormones and antibiotics and aspartame and we should be care free. how can you be vegan, make that hardcore choice and than look down on someone who eats an egg once and awhile?That brings me to my next question.I do not drink milk I just don't think HUMANS are suppose to drink from a cow....but I think I heard somewhere a cow makes milk while prego? but don't chickens just lay eggs willy nilly? What is the harm in eating an egg? I might eat an egg every once in a while but I don't feel un veg. if I do. what is your opinion on this matter?

  • emilyplay's avatar
    Report Abuse

    Posted by emilyplay at 08/13/08 16:39:48

    I am loving my first day reading these posts.

    Pork chocolate I would never have imagined that anything so gross could exist.

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