Posted by JohnnySensible at 07/12/10 20:52:24Pseudo Green BS.
"we therefore recommend....... - that you kill animals every day to keep your psychological crutches cuddling you!"
What kind of a trip are you on?
You are spamming links to a meat selling site.
Posted by kenvegan at 07/12/10 10:12:45Hello. LivingECO.com lists over 15,000 products from hundreds of vendors. The only products containing cow products are pet foods on the site. I am also vegan, and although I have always been an animal lover, I chose not to own any pets because of the increased carbon footprint. I am looking into this right now with the company owners. We are a new company, and are working on getting vegan pet food companies to list products on the site on the site. I would love to hear from other vegans who own dogs and cats.
I was reading, from vegancats.com the following:
we therefore recommend that you mitigate the risk of urinary tract problems by feeding males cats only a 25-75% vegan diet and females a 50-100% vegan diet.
We welcome anyone visiting the site to flag any product that they deem we should remove for any reason.
Posted by kenvegan at 07/13/10 08:59:42Hello:
I have spoken with the owners. We are going to have a poll on the site about products which contain honey. If you go to those links you posted, you will see that those meat based pet products have been removed.
I would still be interested in hearing from any vegan cat owners to determine what they are feeding their cats.
Thank you for your input.
A problem that we are dealing with is that we are unable to satisfy everyone with the products on the site. For example, there are organic products wrapped in plastic. We are doing our best to convince those businesses to transition to LivingECO.com is attempting to transition people to a greener lifestyle. When products are flagged, or we find people who feel we should not carry certain products on the site, we certainly look into these products immediately.
Also, we are working on our search engine. When you type in "Meat" now, any product description containing the word meat comes up. For example "Some raviolis are filled with meat. Others with cheese. Ours are full of clean. If you want to get technical, they're actually a pastry of hemp burlap" come up when I click on your meat link. Also, coconut meat comes up also.
Thanks again for your input.
Posted by kenvegan at 07/13/10 09:47:38I looked for pet food products on HappyCow, and could not find any. I would love to hear what vegans/vegetarians are feeding to their cats. I know that dogs can be vegan, but from what I have read, it is not recommended to raise cats vegan. We hope to have more vegan dog foods listed on the site soon, but I am still researching better alternatives to cat foods. In nature, cats eat fish/meat based diets.
I found some vegan cat food online, but their site doesn't recommend that their own products are fed to cats exclusively without some animal protein as well.
Do you own any cats, JohnnySensible, or know anyone who does. I would love to hear back from you on this.
Posted by kenvegan at 07/13/10 10:59:42I was just thinking about HappyCow. I have been strictly vegan for most of my life. Happycow lists/promotes many restaurants globally that serve beef, fish, chicken, and honey, and have done so for the many years I have been using this resource. Should I not use Happycow as a wonderful resource to help me with my vegan lifestyle because they list/promote animal product serving restaurants on their site? I love this site, and always have. I choose to only eat at the vegan restaurants listed on this site. We are not selling anything directly on LivingECO.com. Companies sell through our site, and customers have the option of supporting or not supporting the various products they see. Customers can also flag products they don't feel should be on the site. We are trying our best to transition people to better products for the planet, and are dealing with tradeoffs all the time. We always welcome suggestions and comments.
Posted by JohnnySensible at 07/13/10 19:21:37Even if I "owned" cats Ken I would not kill other animals to keep them alive.
A few points -
Good move in removing the flesh products.
.....a poll of humans on whether or not you should steal from bees is a strange idea - why do your bosses want to profit by stealing from bees?
Forget about satisfying all humans - not a species famous for being sane.
Do not leave it to customers to flag products - take responsibility yourselves.
Consider that this Forum is not the place to spam your business.
The polite method of business promotion is discussing collaborations / JV's with the folk who run this site.
Posted by kenvegan at 07/13/10 21:38:18Hi Johnny Sensible:
I spoke with a vegan earlier. He fed his cat a vegan diet for 2 years. His cat suffered from urinary tract crystals, and he spent loads of money on surgery for his cat. His doctor told him that his cat needed animal products or would die, as the synthesized taurine in his vegan cat food was not sufficient. Another vegan cat owner I spoke with today said she also fed her cat a vegan diet, but now feeds her cat raw meat, and her cat is much healthier. I ask yourself this question: Can a vegan own an animal that eats flesh products, and kill animals or purchase flesh products to feed his or her animal?
Is shopping at Whole Foods and buying organic broccoli supporting the cattle slaughtering industry (we all know Whole Foods sells loads of flesh products). What I am trying to point out is that there seem to be some gray areas.
We are allowing people to flag products just as the webmaster above stated: "If any of our products are found to contain animal derived ingredients, be sure to let us know.". We have many products, and do our best to filter through them. If a product somehow ends up on the site that someone does not find to be any better for the environment, we encourage people to provide feedback. Most good stores want customers to be involved in listing/purchasing decisions, as none of us are perfect.
In terms of spamming the business, spam is unwanted advertising. We have loads of vegan food on the site, and loads of eco products. Many of my vegan friends purchase from and enjoy LivingECO.com, and were quite happy when I told them about it. If I thought I would be offending fellow vegans by posting that we are giving away free vegan chocolate, or posting that we would love for more companies to sell raw vegan food products one our site, I certainly would not have posted in this forum, which I have been a member of for quite a while. We are a start up company, and the reason I thought forums existed was to share ideas and help people?
I happen to have met Eric who runs this site at a raw food restaurant on Broadway in Santa Monica, and I have emailed him about our site.
I am curious what your feeling is about Happycow.net. This site promotes restaurants that serve flesh to humans. Are you angry with them for doing this? Is this truly a vegan/vegetarian site if they are knowingly promoting restaurants to the public that sell flesh products (beef, chicken, fish, honey, etc). I am a vegan, and I shall continue to support and use this site.
This is taken from the Vegan Action site:
"Is honey vegan? Again, it depends on one's definition of vegan. Insects are animals, and so insect products, such as honey and silk, are not traditionally considered vegan. Many vegans, however, are not opposed to using insect products, because they do not believe insects are conscious of pain. Moreover, even if insects were conscious of pain, it's not clear that the production of honey involves any more pain for insects than the production of most vegetables, since the harvesting and transportation of all vegetables involves many 'collateral' insect deaths.
The question remains a matter of scientific debate and personal choice. "
I personally, as I said, have chosen not to eat honey, nor do I own any animals.
Thanks for hearing my views.
Posted by JohnnySensible at 07/14/10 00:24:27
I don't have answers to some of your points.
Everyone has to make their own decisions in life.
Fleshy businesses - I choose to live in Asia where veggy eating places are rarely more than 1 mile apart - so here very few fleshy places get listed. I understand why HC lists 'places where just a few dishes of plant food are available' in less evolved countries such as the US.
Webmaster Eric & I regularly fall out!
I often strongly disagree with his style of moderating this Forum.
He has effectively 'banned' me from posting here on more than one occasion.
'Vegan' was defined by Donald Watson & friends back in the 40's - so the answer is 'no' honey is most definitely not Vegan.
To my thinking your first couple of posts here were in bad style - but the business model looked interesting - that is why I took a good look at your site to figure out what you were doing & made my comments.
This HC site needs to be funded - your site needs more customers - suggest a partnership deal to Eric - customers can be sent from HC Facebook also.
Posted by kenvegan at 07/14/10 11:17:30Hello John:
LivingECO.com in no way endorses a meat eating diet, just like HC does not endorse it either, but as you say, "everyone has to make their own decisions in life". Even though I primarily shop at farmers markets, and ride my bike to the farmers market to buy my produce, on a rare occasion, I will buy something I cannot find at a farmers market at Whole Foods or other "health food" store. I haven't boycotted Whole Foods because they sell animal products. I just don't buy the animal products there. I vote with my dollar.
I realize you thought my post was in bad style, but I merely was letting vegans/vegetarians know that there is a resource to buy not only vegan items, but also solar panels, clothing, cosmetics, and many other products that are better for the environment. The site also has news, videos, etc. about eco issues. My vegan friends, as I said, were thankful that I told them about the LivingECO.com. I was also asking any raw food companies to please post products in our raw food section (certainly helps with their marketing). I merely posted information that I thought would be interesting to vegans and vegetarians like myself.
We are giving organic vegan chocolate in a wildflower seeded box and that grows if planted (and other eco friendly products) to a lucky winner who signs up on the site before August 10.
LivingECO.com is not a vegan site. We are a 'green' site. We do believe that vegan is the greenest way to go (Even our webmaster is vegan and has started the "No Trash Diet" NoTrashDiet.com. He won't purchase food products that are wrapped in non-biodegradable packaging, and he has lost weight from his vegan/notrashdiet diet), but we don't like to impose our veganism on carnivorous animals.
There are many difficulties with going green - meat, packaging, product sources, bpa in cans, plastics, etc. We are trying to create a truly eco/green site, and we welcome your opinion and the opinions of others on how we can be the best site for green products out there.
We ask ourselves questions like: "Is it better for the planet to buy organic vegetables in cans, or conventionally grown fresh vegetables?" "What about buying organic vegetables from Chile vs. locally and traditionally grown vegetables?"
One scenario that came up recently was that a vendor on the site sells raw vegan organic bars wrapped in plastic packaging. I asked if they could wrap their bars in paper or something biodegradable instead. The response was that the bars have absolutely no preservatives, and to keep it that way, they put the bars in plastic because the plastic doesn't breathe, and preserves the freshness without preservatives. They could put their bars in paper bags, but because many of the stores they sell to require a 6 month shelf life, and packaging in plastic allows for a much longer shelf life, they are sticking with plastic packaging. I am looking for alternative forms of plastic or other materials that might work for their raw bars. If anyone here knows of a better packaging for raw foods that will allow for a 6 month or greater shelf life, please let me know.
There certainly seem to be trade-offs and gray areas.
Eric had asked me a year or so ago if we had an affiliate program, and we are building that out now, so that could work.
Posted by JohnnySensible at 07/14/10 19:00:549 suggestions -
1) Jazz up your Profile so that it talks about what you do yourself / what the company does - http://www.happycow.net/members/profile_pb.php?id=24180
2) blog actively - don't just post as you first did in this thread.
3) Open up your Quantcast stats - however dismal they are & then work on improving them.
4)Tweak / promote your site - very seriously - http://websitegrader.com/site/LivingECO.com
5) Use Alexa - all features - enthusiastically.
6) You can form collaborations before your have a formal Affiliate Program in place.
7) Talk to Lizette about green packaging - http://innovasians.com/contactus.php
8) Don't waste time "People Pleasing".
9) "Legalize" your Facebook Profile - use Groups & Pages to promote the company - not personal Profiles.
Posted by kenvegan at 07/14/10 21:05:19Thanks, John! Most of these are in the works, but a few, like the Quantcast stats could be helpful.
Re. pt 4. If you check websitegrader.com/site/LivingECHO.com, you will see that we have an 84 rating, and not a 37 rating. We initially called the site LivingECHO.com (Environmentally Conscious Home and Office), but we realized that LivingECO.com (with ECO in the URL) would improve SEO). We are in the transition phase (you can type in LivingECO.com or LivingECHO.com and it has always gone to the same place.
Thanks again, John!
Posted by JohnnySensible at 07/18/10 18:20:40I have been Googling your posts on various sites Ken.
You would benefit by being much, much more active on Facebook.
HappyCow also needs to wake up to Facebook & become consistently active there.
If you ever want to talk you can see my phone number on Facebook via my Profile here.
Posted by kenvegan at 07/18/10 20:49:54We have been switching our account on Facebook over to LivingECO.com. We were holding off doing things on Facebook because of the company name change, but are starting to create that page. If you put "livingeco.com" in Facebook, you will see that we have a Facebook business page. Thanks!