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Community: Forum: Animal Rights & Animal Welfare

Animal Rights Forum

Hello Folks,

I am creating this thread in order to see who can be put off one of their heroes due to their stance on animal rights and by what it is they will eat.

Now, I am by no means a veggetarian or anything to do with that, A big wet slab of rare steak slapped in front of me is about as close to heaven as I will come, but it has recently come to my knowledge that my hero, MMA superstar Fedor Emilanenko has admitted to eating and enjoying dog meat. This has put me off supporting him quite a bit, as I really feel that eating dog is wrong.

For those who are not familiar with Fedor or mixed martial arts, he is a russian fighter who belongs at the top of the pound for pound fighter list in the world along with others stars such as Anderson 'The Spider' Silva and Georges 'Rush' St Pierre, who is actually fighting this saturday in the Ultimate Fighting Championship at the Bell Center in Montreal in a rematch against highly towted Matt'The Terror' Serra who beat him the first time around.

My main question here is, Can you be put off one of your sporting heroes, based soley on the fact that he has eaten something you believe should not be eaten.

Responses (88)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Smash_HLS at 04/19/08 18:54:55

    Consuming the corpse of a dog is morally no different than consuming the corpse of cow, pig or chicken. Why would you believe it wrong to eat a dog, but heavenly to torture, kill and consume a cow?

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by auungbong at 04/29/08 08:00:27

    I agree 100 percent with SMASH HLS. How by an means, can you emphasis that chicken, beef pork is fine to consume (in America) but eating of dogs/cats is just horrible?

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 04/29/08 16:32:25

    I don' think anyone really looks at MMA fighters as heroic, do they? That is the problem that caught my attention.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by KellyVeganGirl at 06/18/08 18:57:55

    lol I don't think people that play sports are 'heroes'.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by janedoe at 07/18/08 23:09:38

    I actually somewhat enjoy watching mixed martial arts. I wouldn't monetarily support any of the fighters who eat meat, especially since they no doubt consume quite a bit of it. Knowing they are responsible for the deaths of MANY animals simply by supporting the industry on an above average scale definitely turns me off to wanting to promote or endorse them, that is regardless of what animals they are eating. I can definitely understand, and at one point identified with your preference for one certain type of animal, and your shock at the idea of them being... consumed. I felt the same way in my pre-veg days when I learned certain Asian cultures skinned puppies alive for a delicacy. I feel your disgust is properly placed. Of course, I also encourage you to expand that disgust, considering that what the dogs went through to feed your (former?)hero is not at all unlike what other animals raised and slaughtered for food are forced to endure. I hope my response has been at least somewhat helpful :)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Ducati at 08/04/08 08:37:20

    Mac Danzig is an MMA fighter, vegan, and animal rights proponent.

    www.peta2.com/outthere/o-macdanzig.asp

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by treehugger at 08/06/08 00:18:01

    It fascinates me how people can see and justify a difference between eating a dead cow and eating a dead dog.
    There is no freaking difference.

    And all my heroes/heroines are vegan - that's why they're my heroes.

    :)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/06/08 08:30:28

    There are many cultures in the world. The truth, in my opinion, is that he has just as much freedom to eat dog meat as someone else has to eat a cow, pig, or snake meat.
    Now if he were trying to force me to eat dog meat we would have a serious disagreement to deal with. And I really don't care just how pound of pound tough he may be, he would loose that fight.

    Quasi :)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 08/06/08 09:04:48

    Just because we have the ability to eat an animal doesn't mean we should. In some countries you may have the "freedom" to kill other human beings...doesn't make it right. Humans have compassion for a reason!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/06/08 15:59:38

    In America they have the legal right to eat meat. By law. We may persuade, preach and teach otherwise. But that is their legal right.
    It is the same in most of the worlds countries that I have lived in as well.
    It is a life choice. As is religion and/or political affiliation.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/06/08 16:12:37

    First of all, no sports person would ever be my "Hero". Those that gain that title are few and far between, beginning with my dad.
    Second of all, "quasi", sure... people have the right to kill and eat animals, just as they have a right to deal later with heart disease, high cholesterol, and other ailments that are often associated with the typical, american, meat eating diet.
    And third, just because something is a right doesn't make it right.
    Interesting that you, a meat eater, would be put off by your hero eating a dog. Flesh is flesh. A corpse is a corpse.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/06/08 16:13:27

    oh... I meant to add colon cancer to one of the ailments

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/06/08 17:35:02

    I don't believe I ever said he was my hero.
    That was the other feller, tony_rockyhorror that proclaimed Fedor Emilanenko as hero. I have never heard of either one of them before today.

    I am a Fruitarian. listed as "mostly vegetarian" because there is not a label for Fruitarian. please don't get so hostile.
    I am really a pretty nice guy.

    I am not put off by this man or anyone else eating a dog or cat or cow, pig, chicken or fish. I simply stated that he has a much right to eat a dog ( or any other animal ) as anyone else does. I do not believe I have the right to force my opinion or lifestyle on anyone else.

    I do believe in the law.

    I do believe I have the right to preach and teach, and to persuade others to see what I believe is a healthier life style.
    As they say "Rome wasn't built in a day". Years and years of teaching can not be erased in a matter of weeks, days or months. Teach by example not force. It is human nature of oppose force. Violent actions and nasty name calling only lead to retaliation in kind. One will lesson the positive effects of what one is trying to teach by resorting to ugly means.

    Top of the day to all.

    Quasi

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/06/08 18:10:28

    ok, my bad.
    about mixing you up with tony.
    however... coming into an animal rights forum and staking a claim about someone having right to eat a dog or any other animal as anyone else does is not exactly something that isn't going to get a lot of flack from those animals rights and vegans for animals rights who read your post.
    It sounds like you are defending his terrible life style... as eating meat is a different lifestyle carried on by educated people who stand up for animal rights because they know the truth, and who eat accordingly.
    again... as stated, yes, I got you mixed with tony... so THAT portion I take back... but the other part, I don't.
    And about getting angry? Ha... if you aren't angry, you either haven't come to understand what is really going on or you haven't the compassion to care or you are somewhere in between. (and I don't mean irate angry... but sitting back and letting bygones be bygones is not the rout I could ever justify taking)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 08/07/08 09:32:23

    QV - Question, what do you mean on your profile that you only eat animals that eat vegetables? Don't fruitarians eat only fruits, nuts, etc? I'm not bashing you at all, just curious as to your viewpoint here.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/07/08 21:58:26

    OK. Let's try this. So one day I am up very early in the morning and I don't have to go to work today and no one ( friends or family ) knows I'm off today so this is my day to just relax and have a wee bit of fun. A day that Is my day. What shall I do today? Think I'll do a few goggles and play on the computer. Right now I am doing a deep research on and writing a paper on the U.S. Constitution and the Reformation ( the braking away form the Catholic Church ) and the connection of the two. ( if there is one ) And as reading and poking about the net I find something saying something about Christ being a vegetarian. And I'm like, Uh? I've never heard that before. So I follow this path the leads me to a place called HappyCow. So I check it out. Cool I think to myself, here is a place where people with similar thoughts to mine can hang out and chat about "ANYTHING". I mean here you are rated as vegan, vegetarian, mostly vegetarian, and several other titles or designations. I conclude that this is a mixed bag of believes and thoughts where people can rashly discus their varied points of view. After all one was "Mostly Vegetarian". That seems to imply that this person still eats meat or eggs or fish or cheese that kind of stuff. Well there is not a title or heading for a Fruitarian so I gotta' be a mostly vegetarian. Which is not true because I eat very little vegetables. But I do eat some as I have mentioned. Watermelons, apples, pears, and maybe a wee of cauliflower now and again. But most of what I eat I do not cook. And most of the veges out there I am not the most fond of raw. Maybe carrots. Love to make carrot juice. Yes I eat nuts. uncooked and unsalted. Almonds and walnuts and pecans. These are usually used as "Snack Foods". Sorry, I kind of got off the reason for this story..... So I decide to make an account and see what is happening here at the HappyCow. I have come up with a pseudonym or a handle. Quasi Vegetarian pops into my mind ( goes right along with the mostly vegetarian thing ) and it makes me laugh because it reminds me of Quasimodo and Notre Dame. So it hits me that because I can not label myself as a Fruitarion and with the name Quasi Vegetarian people are going to assume I am a meat eater. But because of the seeming acceptance of options ( based on the categories I had to choose for to describe myself these people are open minded and maybe a wee of sarcastic humor would be fun. So I added the animals that eat vegetables thing. I thought it may even open a dialog about my being a Fruitarion. So I set it up and had a walk about the site. That in a "nutshell" is how I got here. Why I came here, I thought it may be a nice place to make a few new cyber mates and chat a wee.

    Quasi

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/07/08 23:03:21

    so were you playing devils advocate, as it sounded like you were sticking up for the rights for people to eat dog or other animals?
    My point I was trying to make, was that this is an animal rights forum. Animal rights: not eating any animal would be a part of giving them the right to live without harm by humans. Harm: kill.
    THAT was the inconsistency that was seen. Though I don't know a single animal rights activist or advocate that would ever justify eating meat, seeing a pig just as valuable as a dog, cat, racoon, cow, bunny, and so on.
    that's all.
    I don't want you to feel jaded for being a vege.. fruititarian when you mean well, but it was hard to stomach anyone defending the right for humans to deny animals the right not to be eaten. I understand animals don't have "rights" to not be eaten, worn, tortured for "research" or exploited, beaten, battered, bloodied, starved, neglected, etc for entertainment (and the list can go on) which is what the animal rights movement is about.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 08/08/08 00:04:35

    QV - Thanks for the explanation. I had a feeling part of that was you being sarcastic :P

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Ducati at 08/08/08 05:26:41

    QV, The base word for vegetarian is vegetation, not vegetable (Vegetable also comes from vegetation). Fruit, nuts, seeds, etc. are all vegetation. Therefore, a fruitarian is a vegetarian. Also, fruits can be vegetables. There is no botanical term for vegetable as it is a culinary term. A tomato or a cucumber are botanically fruits, but in culinary terms, they are vegetables. In botanical terms, most vegetables which are not botanically fruit are leaves, stems, roots, etc.

    HM, I know many animal rights activists who think it is ok to feed their dog or cat meat, but still call themselves vegans and consider themselves animal rights advocates. People find ways of justifying everything.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/08/08 08:11:12

    Upon finding HappyCow before I made my profile ( directly after as well ) and went out into the world of HappyCow to introduce myself. I did read the guidelines and look about a wee. I was under the impression then and am as yet, that HappyCow is fundamentally a vegetarian sight. That all forms of vegetarianism are welcome here and encouraged to as to spark a wee of healthy conversation. I believe the title of "mostly vegetarian implies that there are going to be members of this community that do eat a wee bit of meat, dairy ( milk and cheese and such ), fish and maybe even bugs and insects. This type of format where everyone agrees to be here "willingly" in this setting and abide by " Full Terms of Use " seems to imply that there will certain respect and toleration for all of it's members and for their personal opinions and beliefs. This is what peaked my desire to become a member of the HappyCows community the very most. Being tolerant and respectful of another's opinions and belief system does not mean that one condones anthers lifestyle of life choices but it does mean that one respects the others right to make decisions and choices. This is necessary ( in my opinion ) if one is to teach and convert another to their belief system or lifestyle. As a Fruitarian it is my opinion that this is the healthier life choice. That is open to discussion and only my opinion. I will not force try to force anyone into believing or living my belief system. ( if feel the same about politics and religion as these are also faith and emotional and personal opinion based belief systems. Not one of them may be proven or dis proven. ) I will however respect the others right to believe as they may and in doing so perhaps create duologue where we may mutely gain knowledge and understand and allow ones personal wisdom to grow.I live in a society of laws and rules. I may not agree with some of the rules or laws but nun the less they do exist. And I will be courteous to these laws and rules. I believe they are necessary for society to survive and without them chaos would rule the world. ( sorry Max )If there is a law or rule I do not agree with I believe in my right to challenge this law by legal and lawful means and through litigation have this law eliminated and or changed. Until that time anyone acting within that law do have the right to act as such. And anyone wishing to retard these peoples actions and school of thought should do it in a respectful means within the law. By going out side of the law and or without respect one loses credibility. They shed a negative light on the vary ideals they are trying to promote. ( again this is my opinion. ) Thus they turn away would be converts and bring the wrath of the legal system down upon them selves and organisations they represent. I do not like the idea of this guy eating dogs. I made it clear in my original response that if he were to try to force me to eat it he would most assuredly loose his quest. I don't like it but by law he has the right. And if I want to change that law I need to do it from within the law. And if I want to change the way he thinks treating him in a disrespectful manner will get me no positive results. However if he sees that I respect him and he finds in me a wee of creditability he may just listen this time. He may just have a change of heart and actually feel what I am feeling. But I will never be able to prove what I am feeling. He must feel it himself to be converted.This is where I am coming from. This is my heart on this matter and on life in general.

    Thanks.

    Quasi

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/08/08 08:14:37

    Vegetation is often yummy & ingesting it wisely keeps us primates lively!

    I have never been tempted to bite a dog.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian

    The first Vegetarian Society founded in 1847 claims to have "created the word vegetarian from the Latin 'vegetus' meaning 'lively' (which is how these early vegetarians claimed their diet made them feel) ..."

    However, the Oxford English Dictionary and other standard dictionaries state that the word was formed from the term "vegetable" and the suffix "-arian".

    The Oxford English Dictionary also gives evidence that the word was already in use before the foundation of the Vegetarian Society:

    1839 - "If I had had to be my own cook, I should inevitably become a vegetarian." (F. A. Kemble, Jrnl. Residence on Georgian Plantation (1863) 251)


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/08/08 08:25:22

    Sorry quasi but your postings just seemed very defensive to the guy who eats a dog or other animals.
    I feel that you are bouncing around my point.
    whatever. Look up some info on animal rights before defending "humane rights to take them away"
    I'm done with this discussion because you are not getting the point and I'm not going to waste any more time whatesoever.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/08/08 08:34:13

    HM:Please state clearly and in detail what is your point.I will answer in my best understand of your point.Quasi.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 08/08/08 09:17:26

    This is a bit off topic, but to respond to something Ducati said:

    Interestingly, they have done a lot of research into cat/dog diets as well to see if it would be safe for their humans to put them on a vegetarian diet.

    Research has shown a dog can be on a vegetarian diet (there are tons of high quality veg dog foods on the market), but there are still opposing sides on the matter. A lot of vets think it will be too hard to get all the right nutrients for a veg dog (but, this was thought about veg diets for humans by many doctors, and still some to this day, for a long time. Who knows if this will change as time goes on??). It seems to be pretty split. I am hoping to do more research on the matter to help become more educated. As of now, since I only know what I have read so far, I have not formulated a solid opinion about it myself.

    For cats, the research very strongly shows they need meat to survive. They are not physically capable of surviving on a vegetarian diet.

    The field of animal nutrition has been around for a while, and is starting to expand quite a bit, which is great! If you have the resources, seeing an animal nutritionist for help with your pets diet would be great. If not, just like with people, I think it's probably a good idea to talk with a trusted veterinarian before making a drastic changes to your pets' diets. Or...you could just get pets that are naturally veg!

    There was this excellent article, I can't remember if it was in VegNews or Vegetarian Times a few months ago. I'll go dig it up and give you guys the reference.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/08/08 20:23:06

    oh my god.
    Quasi... my point, as stated OVER AND OVER AGAIN:
    THIS is a forum in an ANIMAL RIGHTS GROUP.
    One can NOT come in here, defending the right to eat dog as any other animal, and expect to be treated with absolute kindness.
    As an ANIMAL RIGHTS ADVOCATE AN ACTIVIST, I will never condone or even defend a human's rights to eat an animal. You said you do not condone... however you do believe in the "law".
    In an ANIMAL RIGHTS GROUP, the law that says it is ok to eat an animal, dog or any other animal, is NOT acceptable.
    so to come in here defending someone's right to do so is not something you can expect to get upmost respect from.
    again... that is my point... if you don't get it, you don't get it.
    I don't have the time to waste explaining it again, and I have no questions for you to answer, nor do I need any more excuses or thesis on explainations of your intention. I really don't care.
    NO offense, but there are better things to do with my time. I've already posted beyond what I wish to on this matter.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/09/08 00:26:33

    This being a forum on animal rights it is exactly the right place to talk about these subjects or animals rights and or human rights. This is exactly the place for persons concerned about bringing about changes in animal rights, to talk about their ideas and opinions of how to go about this, their opinions and concerns and why they feel the way they do.
    Also if someone wants to come here and defend the rights of others to eat meat this is exactly the place to do it.
    I am not advocating that anyone eat meat. I am not advocating that it is morally correct to do so. I am however pointing out that these persons do have a right by law to do so and if we act accordingly we are in fact acting not reacting. And there is a very marked difference in acting and reacting.
    When we act with respect people begin to see us with credibility. They see as a responsible people with a very real dilemma on our hands. Then they begin to take us seriously.
    We begin to get beyond knocking on the door only to have it slammed in our faces. They begin to let us in because they trust us and our motives. We should do every thing we can to petition the laws and lawmakers to bring about legal changes and at the same time we should begin rationally and calmly talking with people in a way to convert them to our way of believing.
    Again, violence only begets violence. Disrespect only begets disrespect. It is human nature. And if we understand this and use it wisely and correctly it becomes our ally.It works for us rather than against us.
    You have said something about the "T" word. Well this is just my point. Because some extremists went outside the law and threatened not only the lives of some of the doctors and or scientist but there wives and children the they invoked others to label all animals rights in general as terroristic. We know this it not true but because someone choose to go outside the law, use violent and illegal actions that may have threatened the lives of children, and then made statements to the effect that it did not matter if these children were threatened or injured or not they were making know their will. It is my opinion these people though meaning well did more harm than good to the overall good of the cause. In the minds of the general public they gave the Animals Rights Movement a black eye. They painted a bloody ugly picture for all the world to see. And they saw it was painted by the Animal Rights People. Let the other side paint the bloody ugly pictures. We if we want respect and credibility must remain above reproach. We need to be seen as the good guys. If we do not we have lost the fight and are trying to push water up hill with only our empty hands. Weather you agree with me or not can you understand where I am coming from? Can you understand that I am trying to invoke a positive influence on this our common goal? I am not the enemy. I am in fact an ally. Maybe with a different approach to the situation at hand, but a very real ally just the same.

    Quasi

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/09/08 02:29:03

    so you are pro-animal, but anti-gay?

    do you just not like the boy dogs that mount one another?

    and indifference is the next great tool of animal rights movement? profound and not giving a damn is certainly a tack most of us would never have thought of. kudos. you have effectively communicated nothing of value.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/09/08 04:36:16

    agreed lizard.
    and quasi, if you have followed the crap that animal and environmental and other liberation activists have had to face, you might guess again before blaming some activists working outside the law.
    Animal rights activists do not condone acts that would harm any animal, human or non human. Acts of violence against a human or non human animal is not a part of the fight.
    I am very skeptical about the whole incident, and yet I will not discuss my views on it here or anywhere on this site.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Ducati at 08/09/08 05:28:47

    Tatiana,

    Saying that cats need meat to survive is completely and totally incorrect. It is an excuse for cat owners to be lazy. I have a friend with cats as old as 18 years old that have been vegan since birth. She was feeding them a vegan diet long before any vegan cat foods were available. I believe they have around 8 cats, all vegan. I have other friends with over 20 cats and all of them are vegan. The cats have fewer health issues then cats on a non-vegan diet.

    There is no special ingredient in meat that cats need to survive. They simply need a diet with the correct amount of fat, protein, carbs, and micro nutrients.



  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 08/09/08 09:06:19

    Ducati - Very interesting, everything I've read says cats have to have meat. They mentioned cats needing higher levels of taurine, etc, but never mentioned the possibility of supplementing it in food. Thanks for the info, I will definitely look further into that! (I don't have a cat, I'm just curious when it comes to animal nutrition as well). By the way, the article I was referencing is called "veg pets" from the March 2008 issue of Vegetarian Times.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by vaunderbroad at 08/09/08 09:15:54

    I respect and admire a lot of people with different lifestyles and beliefs than me, I don't try to emulate them and I don't have a relationship with them. So what do I care if their stupid and evil, I can still like their music (dancing, art, fighting style or whatever) I think the key is not to get wrapped up in all and make good choices for yourself and support people around you that do.
    (I don't see the difference between a dog or a cow except for cultural mores killing animals is stupid and wrong,and I do not accept flexitarians in my club. Attention seeking health nuts. read a book or something)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/09/08 12:42:19

    vaunderbroad:

    I wish I would have said that. You are spot on. I am in agreement with you all the way.

    I live in the real world. I don't have the time or will to hate everyone that does not have the same belief system that I have. That much hate and anger is just as unhealthy for a person as eating meats and junk foods.
    I made my lifestyle change to be as healthy as I can be, and to be happier in my every day life.
    I was fighting full contact for many years as a younger man. Now I am in my 50's I may do an exhibition fight now and them but mostly I just spar as part of my physical health.
    When I decided to become a Fruitarian I noticed wonderful results within the first two weeks. More energy, more speed and wind, better sleeping. It was an almost over night improvement.
    I try to teach this to the people I come in contact with out in the real world. I have converted several over the years. As I teach them the virtues of eating right I also teach them the virtues of being humane and treating animals with respect. The two go hand and hand an it is rewarding to see the lights go on when they realize what it is that I am trying to teach them.
    Thanks again vaunderbroad, great comment.

    Quasi

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/09/08 12:56:38

    um, ducati,
    taurine is an ingredient that cats need to live.
    and I'm NOT a lazy cat guardian, however the 12 year old cat I had since she was 9 years old is not vegan. She was not vegan when I met her. I bought vegan cat food and really tried. From mixing it and trying various ways to do it and she just didn't like it. I'm not going to do the "well if you get hungry enough you'll eat it". I also know people, die hard vegans, who have had to take their cats off the vegan food because they got sick from it even with suppliments.
    So I think calling people lazy for not having vegan cats is a little out of truth.
    oh, and my other cat guardian? A kitten and kittens need higher fat content which you won't find in vegan cat food. I've done enough research via internet AND word of mouth that I have found that unfortunately there are two critters in my home that are not going to be a hundred percent vegan. Meow and Indy.
    Does it make me feel great? No, but I do what I can.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/09/08 13:02:38

    oh oh..ps...
    though I will say that Meow (the 12 year old) LVOES vegan food when I'm eating it (most of it).
    Especially Vegan donuts from sweet pea or voodoo. Her senseo of smell is so keen that she's right there when I bring one to the living room, and she'll be up in my lap trying to bite off the donut WHILE I AM EATING IT. I don't know what is in the donuts that she's after. I've tried to figure it out. And the donuts, or my flaxseed toast with tofutti better than cream cheese... those two things bring about this behavior even before she even got a taste.
    hmm. And Indy displays the same.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Ducati at 08/09/08 14:45:27

    HM,
    I wouldn't call you a cat guardian, I would call you a cat slave. LOL Seriously, if your cats have you so trained to feed them what they want, you are wrapped around their little paws. If you adopted a child who was raised on donuts and soda pop and refused to eat fruit and vegetables, would you continue to feed them donuts and soda? You need to learn what tough love is and how to implement it to regain control of your household.

    And don't try and BS me with the whole fat content thing. If you really think there isn't enough fat content in a vegan food, then poor some vegetable oil into the mix. That is 100% fat.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/09/08 15:21:55

    I've spoken with enough people who's cats have gotten ill from vegan cat food. My cats are very healthy. Meow, the 12 year old, is extremely healthy and you'd think she was quite young.
    I'm not trying to bs you with anything.
    Don't even go there, I was just bringing up a point.
    Do you have cats eating vegan food? Then we'll talk because I am interested. If not, then keep your rudeness to yourself before calling names and talking about something you have no personal experience in.
    However if you DO have the experience, then I'm genuinely interested, if you aren't going to be a [censored] about it.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/09/08 15:32:06

    (ps)
    honestly, I'd love to talk to someone who HAS a cat that has been vegan (for more than just a couple months) that hasn't gotten sickly. Tell me your experience. They don't even sell vegan cat food at our vegan grocery store due to the adverse effects that people have reported back they have chosen not to carry it when they began carrying vegan dog food.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Ducati at 08/09/08 21:39:00

    Personal experience is not required to know a great deal on a subject. I have never taken cyanide, and I don't need to take it to know it is deadly.

    As a vegan, I make it my responsibility to know as much as I can on all sources of animal torture and suffering and how they can be eliminated.

    As someone who titles themselves a vegan, you should have already done this research yourself.

    Here is a true no-kill shelter that feeds all their animals a vegan diet. I am sure they can answer any question you have.

    www.homeatlastanimals.org/


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/10/08 02:48:56

    To assume that I haven't done the research as a vegan and activist is presumptuous. There is a risk of, specifically, urinary tract infections that are a risk factor of an all vegan diet in cats specifically, especially in male cats.
    This you should already know about since you've done all the research.
    Like I said, I'll speak to you on a conscious level without rudeness, and without being looked at as an ignorant human.
    by nature, dogs are omnivores and cats are carnivores. I know they don't need a hundred percent non vegan diet, and I do my best to make their diet the healthiest possible. The food I DO feed them has no byproducts or meat "meal" and is locally made here in Portland. I've been researching already for the right vegan or mostly vegan food that truly contains everything they need.
    What I have found that has been tried by people I KNOW has caused health problems long term.
    look it up some more.
    And get to know me before assuming who or what I am, because you obviously have no clue.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/10/08 04:40:14

    a cat you speak of having uti is mine. she had it bad, turned into bladder and kidney infection. cleared up but food choice is very sensitive now. stay away from brewers yeast (some folks swear to it for pets, but it was really bad for my cat). few hundred dollars and fear fed lies later, she is fine...
    they don't sell vegan cat food in most places i go.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/10/08 04:41:01

    and fwiw, even when she was mostly vegan or whatever, she killed and hunted on her own, so who's kidding who

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Ducati at 08/10/08 07:05:36

    HM,

    I gave you a link and you can contact them for more information. And I think you might want to research the word vegan.

    Lizard,

    Hunting and killing a free mouse who has a fighting chance to escape is infinitely different then the animals that are tortured and killed at factories.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/10/08 08:59:12

    Ducati, come down off your high horse and stop being such a jerk.
    But I'm going to let that little comment roll off my shoulder in remembering that you don't know me for anything.
    You really have no clue, anything about me other than what I happen to try to say in a post that doesn't see to be very clear to you.
    It is vegan such as yourself that turn people away you know.
    I hate high and mighty vegans. You probably only associate with vegans as well, as you have no tolerance for another person's process prior to becoming vegan eh?
    So how does it feel to be such a turn off?

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/10/08 09:09:25

    PS...
    lizard,
    my best friend's cat developed chrystals in his urine so badly he was bleeding, and the vet, bless her vegan heart, worked long with him with treatments to clear it up. The poor boy suffered a great deal.
    And then his kidneys failed.
    This was a vegan cat.
    Which is the main story that worries me.
    As said, I am truly researching for a good cat food. I know there are many. I'm tired of feeling like crap to feed my cats, which, Ducati, has nothing to do with you as it's nothing new.
    And about the hunting and killing a free mouse. Cats seldom if ever actually eat those things. They kill for sport not food. Which is one of the reasons aside from health why I keep my cats indoors. They live healthier and safer, plus they aren't out killing little critters for game.
    When the hunt for the right formulated food for a senior cat AND kitten is done, the changes will be made and hopefully all will be well.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/10/08 11:00:24

    I ain't a vegan no more since "Webmaster Sir" added new Profile options.

    No more "V" words for me.

    Hurray!

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/10/08 11:04:25

    HM:

    I don't think that Dacuti is judging you anymore harshly than you judge Dacuti. Or than you have judged me. There see a we of duplicity in the standards of your judgment. Just my opinion of course.
    I am interested in just how as a vegan you can condone the killing of animals by humans to feed other animals. It is my opinion that Dacuti has a point.

    Quasi

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/10/08 11:11:08

    Johnny:

    Good on you mate.
    This is really wonderful news.

    Though we, you and I, are not vegan it does not mean that we are any less concerned about cruelty and misuse of animals. But I am sure that there will some with different opinions. Even some that will condemn us.

    Top of the day to you Johnny my friend.

    Quasi ;)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/10/08 13:59:10

    I wasn't judging you quasi, just putting out a point that never seemed to be gotten, but oh well.
    I live in a city (well, small city) with a huge vegan community and extremely compassionate people. The vegan cat food thing seems to be a big controversy that most seem to disagree with. It's a compromise made by most vegans I know, and I am not trying to go with the flow but to be better educated on the health rather than popularity of living up to a label.
    to you, quasi, it was not judgment being passed but trying to let you know why the defensiveness of people who didn't appreciate the comment stating about people having the right to eat whatever they want.
    Yeah, they are going to do what they want.
    Yeah, it's not against the law in some cultures.
    But then slavery was legal here once too.
    Hell, it's still legal in some places, or at least overlooked. Doesn't make it right, and certainly doesn't make it justifiable.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/10/08 16:20:50

    HM: Since slavery is mentioned let us address that point as well. If animals are to be given the equal rights of human animals then how can one condone the slavery of one and not the other? If you own an animal is not that pet a slave to your desires? If it depends on you for it's feeding and care, if it has it's animals rights defined by your desires is it not a slave? If it is not free to live it's natural life without the restraints of the owner, ie coming and going as it pleases, having babies as it pleases, raising these babies as to the animal laws of it's culture, unlicensed, not spay or neutered, not domesticated and in it's natural state, eating as it desires, is that not slavery? If equal rights for all animals is the goal here, then this is a wee hypocrisy, is it not?This is not an attack on veganism. These are very real and legitimate questions that I would like some real understanding on.And as to judging me, yes you very clearly stated that I was not a compassionate person. And it truth anyone who knows me in the real would, agreeing with my passions or not, will never judge me as uncompassionate. They have seen my service here in the community and surrounding area for many years. I have seen the pain and suffering of animals all around the world. Human and non human animals. I know how badly they can hurt and I know how badly I hurt for them and how hard I try to help. Also the honest question of justification of killing one animal by a human to feed another animal, a pet, has not been address.Please HM, let me be very clear here, I am not dissing you. I am not bashing you. I am not making fun of you. I am trying to find logical and rational answers to some logical and rational questions. Thank you. Quasi

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/10/08 18:55:23

    Your post Quasi if very full.
    Let me try to answer at least a couple but keep in mind I've been moving all day and am running late for a vegan bbq, and have been too busy to stop and eat (yes, all day, and it's a quarter after 6pm).
    I am not sure where you get the idea that the cats are a slave.
    One (Meow, now almost 12) came from the pound, and when her human, a close friend of mine as well as roommate, passed away, it was very clear to all how hard it was to her. She followed him around like a puppy dog (I know that sounds strange). I do feel that she chose me, as she clung to me in a manner that made me go straight home after work, and even though it was difficult to be there having watched someone who was like my brother (or maybe more like a dad, as he was older than my own father) pass away of his illness. When I moved from there, she came with me.
    And then there's Little Indy. Indy was found on craigslist. A woman posted an ad to the effect that she had taken in a pregnant stray, this was now her THIRD litter, and she didn't know what to do. Free mother cat and her kittens. In Defense of Animals rescued them. Here in the Portland area there is an animal testing lab called the Oregon National Primate Research Center, and not only do they have OVER 4200 primates currently used for horrible and wasteful experimentation (like nicotine on pregnant monkeys and their unborn babies), they are now using kittens for radical psychological testing which includes pharmaceuticals. So IDA rescued momma cat and her kittens right away, and when I was there dropping off signs, I met Indy. Spoke with my friend who works in that office and he had not been spoken for. There were many kittens needing home as well at the time, however I only had room for one more. He came home with me when he was 9 weeks old.
    I don't consider myself a cat OWNER. A person owns possessions. An animal is a life. Not a possession.
    As far as keeping the cats indoors. There are predatorial creatures out there that harm cats such as raccoons and other cats even. Meow is a tiny cat. She's always been a tiny black kitty (When I met her she was 8 and I thought she was a kitten or very young cat). She's very healthy but I'd hate for her size or possible lack of young cat fighting skill (12 years is estimated over 60 years in cat age) to injure her badly to where she crawls away to die slowly if not quickly.
    Knowledge has come out, and this may be a two way argument amoung many, that indoor cats live healthier and longer if given plenty of care indoors with options for fun and play or whatever you want to call it. If you came to my house you'd see they have access to everything safely. They are extremely affectionate creatures and I've heard it said from people who have been here "If I were an animal I'd want to be your cat!". They are visibly happy and content. The are found looking out the window when I am coming to the door, but once I am here they pretty much satisfy themselves by either doing what they do around the house or using me as their personal jungle gym/ chew toy. Though I do have to admit... the apartment I am moving from is small. Sufficient for Meow to be happy and content indoors anytime. When I brought Indy home it continued to be ok, however with Indy now 6 months old and just as big as Meow (tiny cat:), I have come to the conclusion they need more space. Yes... cats need space too. This is the base and original reason I began looking for a house with more room. And I found one- an older house that had been renovated and much done to it all with recycled material (such as recycled pine strips, perfectly good used weatherized windows, etc). Some have found it funny that I would move to a bigger place to accommodate the kitties, but those who know me don't even bat an eye.
    Regarding spay and neuter... THOUSANDS of animals are put down due abuse, neglect, abandon. Hundreds of feral cats roam the neighborhoods uncared for, often found skinny and injured. There is a feral cat coalition that is a catch and release after spay/neuter/shots and who knows what happens to them later. But at least it is known more aren't going to be out there from that cat. I found one by my work who had his eye punctured. It was white and [censored]. He was very feral. He was taken to a vet, his eye was extremely infected and he was so skinny (he was definitely a big tom cat prior). He was brought back to health, though now missing his eye. He had his shots, was neutered, and low lives with a dear friend of mine who has 2 other feral cats in her care, both of them are special needs as well.
    I'm losing where I'm going with this.
    I don't know. I was never trying to bash you Quasi. I know maybe your wording came out probably different than meant. I don't know.
    Byt I do understand being misunderstood. I probably come across on the screen as a indignant you know what, but really, those that know me know I almost never stop. My heart is there with the animals which makes it difficult to come to the terms of, do I give my cats something to eat that they don't want but will eat if they get hungry enough that will possibly make them sick or suffer or constantly be taken to the vet for problems associated with the food like has happened with numerous people I know or have spoken to? Or do I bite the bullet and make a compromise and choose one animal over another.
    I'm likely babbling. I'm shaky and need to eat some peanuts before heading out to the bbq (all vegan of course:).
    hope I answered a bit of what you were looking for. It's been a highly stressfully week with some major intensity mixed in as well.
    if you need to discuss anything more, feel free to PM me... or not.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Ducati at 08/11/08 10:01:12

    HM,

    You are completely wrong in your assumptions. I welcome everyone and I encourage everyone to make the steps they need to make. However, if you call yourself a vegan, then live like a vegan. Don't taint the word by your lack of commitment.

    You wrote..."My point I was trying to make, was that this is an animal rights forum. Animal rights: not eating any animal would be a part of giving them the right to live without harm by humans. Harm: kill.
    THAT was the inconsistency that was seen. Though I don't know a single animal rights activist or advocate that would ever justify eating meat, seeing a pig just as valuable as a dog, cat, racoon, cow, bunny, and so on."

    Who is on the high horse? Give me a break. You are an animal rights advocate you is justifying eating meat! Just because your cat is eating it doesn't make it any less painful for the animals who suffer and die. You sure do talk the talk. Maybe you should try and walk the walk.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/11/08 10:42:31

    HM - suggestion - call yourself a Herbivore - these "full on" vegan dudes are too intense & judgemental for me - far too much use of "should" for my liking.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Ducati at 08/11/08 10:52:24

    Sorry if I am too committed to saving animals for you Johnny. Maybe its that I actually give a crap about their suffering, air pollution, water pollution, deforestation, aquifer depletion, global warming, etc. Maybe if you cared about something as deeply as I do, you would understand.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/11/08 11:09:08

    Thank you Ducati!



    ............................................
    Karen Horney - on neurosis & "the tyranny of the shoulds".
    .
    Excerpt - "So the neurotic swings back and forth between hating themselves and pretending to be perfect."
    .
    .
    From - http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/horney.html





  • Report Abuse

    Posted by treehugger at 08/11/08 13:03:50

    Ducati I find you more up your own ass than being overly committed to saving animals.

    Who are we to dictate to animals what they should and should not eat? Isn't that a form of animal exploitation in itself?


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Ducati at 08/11/08 13:16:27

    Treehugger,

    Yeah, I find I offend people when I bring to light their hypocrisy.

    I would love it if people had no pets as it is animal exploitation. However, because it is a norm of society, and it is also a norm to get rid of a pet when unwanted, I think it is noble to take in those animals since they are domesticated and unable to survive alone in our society. And everyone with pets dictates what their animals eat, so having them eat something that doesn't cause exploitation of another animal. To adopt an animal out of love and kill another to feed it is so ironic and lacks a commitment to a compassionate lifestyle.

    And I am not judging anyone, I am holding them to the standard to which they claim to adhere. Feed your animals whatever you want. Eat a steak for dinner. But don't dare call yourself a vegan.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Tatiana at 08/11/08 15:38:56

    Ducati (and everyone really) - What are your thoughts on (pet)animals that eat only live prey?

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/11/08 19:18:08

    I am not quite sure how to say this gently. But I will try, and to anyone offended by my words it is not intended or suggested. I am simply stating a point of view and casting for answers.

    Again, it seems to me that if you are keeping a pet in the house it is akin to keeping a pet in a cage. Indoors or out doors it is a cage. If you own a dog and you give is a 10' by 20' dog run or you let is run your entire fenced off yard it is a cage no less the size. If you own a pet that "needs" a diet of meat, and you condone the killing of other animals to feed that pet, then I see a chink in your armor. ( it's OK for you or someone acting as your agent to kill an animal to feed your pet, but not to feed their children. )If you want equal rights for all animals and then you yourself infringe upon the very rights you are sparring for then your credibility seems a wee tainted. If you in fact own a pet and are Vegan I see that there is a bit of duplicity in life choice and lifestyle

    Ducati: I applaud your willingness to call the spade a spade. Call it shovel, call it trowel, call it what you will. To quote a man of history, " A rose by any other name will smell the same." It is what it is. Slavery is slavery. Deprivation of rights are deprivation or rights. The very thing you decry and deplore you participate in. It is like a televangelist indulging in underage sex. Ducati seemed to imply, and I agree, if you are going to talk the talk, then walk the walk.If not don't feel bad, just step down from Vegan and be a Vegetarian and be a concerned animal lover doing what you can to promote compassion for animals. But don't claim the religion if you are not willing to live it's doctrines.I happen to think if I were sitting at the dinner table with both Ducati and johnnysensiable we would have a very lovely time. We agree on many things and we disagree on things. But I believe we can agree to disagree and be respectful of one another. Especially as we are truly allies in the world of caring for animals.

    treehugger: I have read many of your posts and I usually find you to be sensible. The truth is I like you just fine and hope as I spend time here at HappyCow we may find ourselves good cybermates. That being said I think your remark to Ducati was a wee harsh. He has made a very good point and I will paraphrase it again. ' If you claim to be Vegan, then be Vegan. Not just about, or a little more or less. Do it right or do not do it at all.

    Ducati: if I misrepresented you I am sorry. This is the message I received from your posting. I think you may have been a wee sensitive to johnny and his statement about "too intense & judgemental" I do not think he was trying to dis you. He was in fact agreeing with what you have said. I know he believes in the humane and compassionate care and treatment of animals. I know that he is truly an ally. He is just stating a reason in his decision to fight the fight from his platform. That is acceptable to me, and form your comments to the Vegans who don't want to be committed to the vegan cause, I would think this is how you would want it and would respect that. Again fellers this is just my take on things. I do hope I did not misrepresent either of you. I like and respect you both.

    johnny: Thank you just for being here. I think you do use good common sense. And I believe you make a positive difference it the world and in your own way.

    Tatiana: As for a animal killing another to survive or feed it's self or it's offspring. That is "the nature of the beast", if I may use the phrase. I believe that it would be accepted by any clear minded individual. And I do not see that as an issue here. I think what is at issue here is can one who is holding high the Vegan name as their banner believe it correct to kill one animal to feed to another. If a cat kills and eats a bird. If a snake kills and eats a mouse. If an owl kills and eats a cat. If a dog kills and eats a rabbit. It is as nature would have it. What is one to do? Post a sign in the wood saying "Dear animals, please do not kill and eat each other." ? We would first have to teach them how to read. Not a path I am ready to travel just yet.

    HM: You are passionate in your views. I am not bashing you. However I am saying be even minded in your thinking. Owning a pet, by any name you should desire to call it is still owning a pet. To own another being is a form of slavery. You have infringed upon it's rights. For good or no, it is not the issue, you take away it's basic freedoms. You assume that you are smarter and therefore you should make its decisions and choices for it. In the world of human society we have a name for this. It is Socialism. Where the upper class dictates what the lower class will and will not do. It is a form of slavery on a governmental level. You should draw a line in the sand as to right and wrong, pick a side and stand there

    To everyone, thank you for participating in these discussions. It is wise to chat about what one believes with others. It makes one look inside themselves and check there thinking and ideals.

    Thank you all.

    Quasi

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/11/08 20:09:06

    Ducati,
    what you know of me is only words on a screen.
    I have nothing left for you.
    Never did I say it was ok to feed meat to an animal... I even said I was researching something so I wouldn't, and I have actually found something that will allow me to make the cat food myself and still give the cats what they need to be healthy. Much you know of me eh?
    Quasi? I have nothing for ya dude... again, I apologized for coming across as judgmental to you, and your long babbling posts are a bit much for my tired eyes.
    But either way, think what you will, but careful with the accusations of what you think you know.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/11/08 23:05:28

    wow, again the suggestion is inaction by qv. don't give a damn about animals. let them die in the streets or just be owned by those who don't care about animals. inaction. no one do anything positive.

    aren't all people animals? yet you discriminate against those of different (or the same as you/ they say you are what you hate the most) sexual orientation. so you are the biggest and most hateful hypocrite out there, simply trying to stir your hate into the pot. as a hater, your loneliness that drives your former SO away is driving others here away... no one here thinks you are either smart or funny. just a lame homophobe which I don't think should be tolerated on a progressive website.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/12/08 00:14:15

    hmmm.... I did miss the part about the anti gay stand of quasi. Of course I gave up reading his entire posts as they are very carefully written. Been an exhausting week (one of my clients passed away on Thursday afternoon after 3 weeks of hospice... and my hours have been increased almost triple, keeping me from a lot of normal adl/ ida activities). And my patience has run out with him. We obviously don't communicate quite the same, and I know I pretty much suck at it on the screen especially when my head is spinning.
    However, if there is an anti gay stand... wow... I'll have to try to look deeper when I'm not so fed up already.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/12/08 00:52:41

    So kindlizard, are you saying that a Vegan can justify the killing of an animal ( By a human ) to feed another animal?

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/12/08 01:06:25

    first, this is my last response to you. I don't rationalize w homophobes/ hateful people.

    it seems like you are FOR killing animals by neglect. let them die in shelters and the streets. you have no courage.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/12/08 01:27:30

    And you kindlizard have not the courage to answer this simple question. Which is a very real part of thread of this forum.
    It seems to me with your history here on the HappyCow that you rationalize with very few.
    If you are afraid to answer this question, I guess that is up to you. Maybe you just don't know how to answer this question.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by treehugger at 08/12/08 01:41:11

    Ducati
    I think you are mistaking me for someone who is looking for approval.

    Who are you you dictate to me what constitutes being a vegan.
    I choose a vegan lifestyle because I want to ensure my survival isn't at the expense of another sentient being's.
    Do you see the keywords there Ducati?

    I

    I make the choices in my life. I choose to live in Spain, I choose to rescue cats from the pound - who otherwise would end up dying in appalling conditions http://www.brighteyes.dk/dataentry/default.asp?id=43&mnu=43

    I choose not to eat meat or dairy.
    I choose not to use products that are tested on animals.
    I choose to recycle.

    I could go on but I'm hoping you are getting the gist.

    To not feed my cats meat would constitute as cruelty and my vegan views are for me not my cats and I will not force my views onto anyone or anything.
    My son eats meat - does that make me a bad vegan parent?
    My neighbours eat meat am I a bad vegan neighbour?

    I will not force my views onto other people. Yes I am passionate about my views and opinions but I also cherish the fact that each and every person on this earth has different views and opinions.

    I feed my cats meat and guess what.....I dare to call myself a vegan.
    All be it a bad vegan as I still wear my leather Docs and I will wear them until they fall off my feet AND I even ate cheese the other day.
    So I am a bad vegan but I still call myself vegan.

    Quasi - you thought what I said was a bit harsh then you should have seen what I was going to put.
    Passions and emotions are bound to get a bit riled up.



  • Report Abuse

    Posted by kindlizard at 08/12/08 01:42:40

    see the hateful people/ homophobe part above.

    do you deny being homophobic?

    the larger question is how to best care for animals, let them die or to give care? you don't seem to do anything. ever. what is the last thing you ever DID, not just talked about? i justify nothing to hateful losers. GOODBYE.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/12/08 04:12:55

    treehugger:
    I applaud you for sticking your ground and stating your mind. That is exactly what I wanted to see. Someone willing to state just what they believe and making no excuses for it. You make more rational sense than you know. You did not get all defencive and resort to calling of names and nasty irrashional reaction. You did not whimper and run away. Bravo. I am very proud of you.
    I am not making fun of you. I am very serious. Passion and emotion is good, and in my opinion what it takes. This you have displayed. Irrational ranting and defensiveness is what I see so many turn to. This is not you. You have a great deal of credibility. And I think you have what it takes to win over others to the cause.
    This is the treehugger I met on my first day at HappyCow. You are the first person that talked to me here at HappyCow. ( do you remember our wee conversation on IM? )
    You were happy and positive and I knew then that I liked you.
    Thank you for being just who you are.


    kindlizard:
    I simply laugh in your direction. And if goodbye it is truly to be, then I guess this is farewell. However I suspect that you can not help yourself. You will be back sooner or later if only to cast the final insult.
    It is how you define yourself.

    Quasi

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by treehugger at 08/12/08 04:32:53

    Quasi you are very sweet and I do remember our conversation and it would be nice to see you in the chat again.
    I chatted to Ducati too and it would be nice to see you there again as well Ducati.

    The thing that we need to remember, in a world that constantly rips apart the values and ethics and reasons of someone being vegetarian or vegan - us lot here should really stick together.
    We are all on the same side after all.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/12/08 05:07:47

    treehugger:

    Again you make me smile ;) Thank you. This is a point I have tried to get across from my first day here at HappyCow.
    Do not reject an ally because of hers or his different faith or cultural background. ( basic belief system ) With diversity we grow strength. We grow creditiblity, we make converts. This over time is how we, you and I and the animals we seek to defend, win.

    I am not adverse to the joggling of ideas. To have a spirited conversation and debate is like exercising one's muscles. Only is is our minds, and ideals that gain strength.
    It forces us to look inside of ourselves. Dig deep for our reasoning. Prove ourselves, not to others, but to our selves.
    Thanks treehugger for seeing beyond the surface.

    Quasi :)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/12/08 05:13:42

    We could be a whole lot more "on the same side" if anonymity was dropped by all - my suggestion state who you are - "go Facebook" style - it makes posts / comments / reviews much more powerful - I adopted this when a certain mini reptile started abusing & threatening me a few months ago.




  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/12/08 05:35:13

    johnny:

    I am laughing out loud. Really! I am having a hard time dealing with my keyboard as I am laughing with tears in my eyes.
    Your tortured friends is truly tortured, but not by you or I. We are just an effect of the cause.
    He may threaten all he wants it is only empty words. To stand face to face and make the threat I think is quite unlikely. And the end results to be sure would be quite disastrous.

    Thank you johnny. Though we have never met it is my opinion I have found a friend on the other side of the world.

    Quasi

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/12/08 06:51:13

    Treehugger, thank you.
    I couldn't agree more.
    Though I am still going to try this mixture/homemade food thing, though will monitor closely the cat's health.
    And quasi, evidently I am not communicating to you enough the why's and wherefores but that is ok. I don't need your thumbs up to live a cruelty free life to the best of MY ability and MY understanding, which continues to become more clear through time. Maybe yours will too. As not a single product in my house, cleaning, makeup, anything, has been tested on animals or has animal product in it. I even dropped 7th generation when I found out there is whey in the sticky stuff that holds the towels to the roll.
    Can you say that?
    Well guess what... EVEN IF YOU CAN'T... It's not for me to say you are not living your life in accordance to some devine standard. You are living your life according to yours.
    I think you have had your answers handed to you over and over. But like a child, you repeatedly ask because you can't seem to find acceptance in the answer, or maybe it's the person giving it to you. I don't know.
    Time to grow up.
    You too Ducati. I've shown this thread to many people who think you are completely out of line. And yeah... Portland has a very strong vegan community. You are rude to so many and I wonder how non hypocritical you yourself are without realizing it. That wasn't a question but I'm sure you will jump to answer anyway. Don't waste your time. I will no longer read a post coming from you, because it is never anything but negative, be it to me or someone else. You are a waste of time. Pity... you may actually have something encouraging to say one day, and I might miss it unless I read by accident. Hmm... good job Ducati...

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Ducati at 08/12/08 07:46:11

    Treehugger and HM.

    I see I hit a nerve. Like QV mentioned, I am simply calling a spade a spade.

    I am a vegan, you are not. Walk the walk and stop talking the talk.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/12/08 10:21:45

    Ducati - myself I do not consider that you are calling "a spade a spade".

    I read you as a neurotic bully.

    You write "But don't dare call yourself a vegan" - you are tripped out!

    I conclude that you have created a new definition of "Vegan" & that you are working to "guilt" people into agreeing with you / accepting it.

    Your new definition "Vegan" is way to the "right" of all of my commited / active vegan friends.

    Would you now agree to "come out" / to stop hiding behind a pseudonym? - then the debate can perhaps become serious.

    With a clear identity your points will have more potency.

    Whatever your decision I wish you well.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by treehugger at 08/12/08 12:07:21

    Ducati - yes you hit a nerve.
    To be myself in a world that is constantly trying to make me something else is my greatest accomplishment of all.
    I will not justify my reasons to you or anyone else - for anything - ever again.

    I am me - like it or lump it.

    I have a feeling you will lump it.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/12/08 15:39:18

    He will lump. Then he will charm when it appears that someone might be within his bite. I've read many many many of his posts.
    On a professional level:
    He displays the marks of self grandiosity and narcissism. These are very dangerous traits that are found in people who hide behind a mask of something nobody can quite possibly match, or something with "status" in their eyes, because they HAVE to hold themselves to a standard while pushing others down.
    These are not compassionate people. They have potential for some of the most malevolent acts of terror.
    So I'm not saying Ducati is the next serial killer by any means. But his inability to let another breath and have their own process and journey to better their life is very commonly found in bullies on the playground to abusive husbands to... yes... malevolent criminals (real criminals... not animal rights activists who have done no harm to human or animal in their attempt to stop the madness of tortur)
    Call me imperfect, Ducati. That is fine. You don't know how it tears me up inside to do what I can to meet the best standards for the animals I have come to have in my care.
    But don't even start telling me to walk my talk when all I see you as is a bunch of talk as well. Everything I say I know I can live up to. Can you?
    I doubt it.
    Because you hide behind your perceived perfection just to push others down.
    No, you didn't strike a nerve so much. There is no way I would let some maniac affect me when he is not even a known human being to me. I've known your type before though... and an abusive bully is all you are to me.
    So get yourself some help. Therapy can be a good thing. Or do you want to deny your need for it just as the one that nearly took my life because he snapped out of nowhere? Yeah... He could only live behind the mask I saw as perfect. No longer am I blinded by such falsehood.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/12/08 15:54:51

    and by the way... I have no reason to go any further into this discussion with neither ducati or quasi.
    Quasi maybe, but not in here... and not with his unrealistic views that he pushes on me when he himself defended the right to eat a dog or any other animal... too much instability for me dude.
    Ducati, never. Unless you come to your senses of how you might affect others with your claims to being a high and mighty human being above anyone who might not be at the same place as you.
    I don't have any belief in or worship of any kind of god, so why would I start with what you seem to think you are?
    Because you aren't.
    One of the worst things animal rights activists can do to each other is what you, Ducati, do in these forums.
    Too bad you weren't at the Let Live Conference a few months ago here in Portland... you might have learned something, if not at least a lesson in humility.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/12/08 16:31:21

    "...........and now for something completely different!"

    From Monty Python - the 1970 "Restaurant (Abuse/Cannibalism)" sketch.

    Watch it here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VWIIPbx9J4

    Read the script here - http://www.ulrikchristensen.dk/scripts/montypython/abuse-can.html
    .
    Excerpt -
    .
    Head Waiter: (Michael Palin) Fine. I'm the head waiter. This is a vegetarian restaurant only, we serve no animal flesh of any kind. We're not only proud of that, we're smug about it. So if you were to come in here asking me to rip open a small defenseless chicken, so you could chew its skin and eat its intestines, then I'm afraid I'd have to ask you to leave.


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/12/08 17:01:49

    So Ducati - please "chill"!

    "Vegan cereal killing" is messy!

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Now I am about to listen to some Billy Preston -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That's_The_Way_God_Planned_It - then it will be time to sleep.


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/12/08 19:25:14

    haha...
    Johnny you make me giggle.

    Disclaimer:
    I was not saying that Ducati is the killer type, or even the violent type. But his self indulgent and mean way of speaking to others who don't fit into his box of perfection as well as the bullying he does around here is very much some of the main traits found in those that are.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by treehugger at 08/12/08 21:25:53

    LOVE IT!

    Monty Python ROCKS!


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/13/08 07:53:07

    OK.
    It looks as if I need to eat a little crow. ( if I may use that term here in this forum. ;)
    I am going to apologise to HM, treehugger, and anyone else I may have offended by my stubbornness. Though I do enjoy a wee of spirited debate I may have inadvertently caused more of an argument ( I don't like arguments ) than incited a debate. I have been talking to some of my Vegan friends here locally, Talking about owning pets and feeding them and the like. I was educated to the fact the there are many different levels of Veganism. Some will eat dairy, and or eggs. Some will eat fish. Some own pets and others do not. More differences than I wish to list here but nun the less there are different levels and they are all Vegan.

    This was a misunderstand on my part. I am very sorry for aiding and abetting to an argument here in this forum.
    As I have said I do believe that a spirited debate about beliefs and opinions is good, but I don't like out and out arguments as they seem to get emotional and loose there educational and positive benefits.

    Again I am sorry.

    But then hay....... What do I know? I'm just a "Fruit"......

    Thanks all.

    Quasi :)

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by HM at 08/13/08 08:06:18

    Quasi... one of the biggest differences between vegan and vegetarian is that vegans do NOT eat dairy or eggs. "Ovo/lacto" vegetarians do. Not vegans. Vegans live solely on a plant based diet.
    I do know some who call themselves vegan and eat honey. That I do not. I was told it is up to your viewpoint of bees. Mine prevents me from eating honey. There's does not.
    Then I know some who eat "freegan" dairy type thngs, such as fudge around the holidays from their mom. I don't, but they do, and I don't judge their choice on that one either.
    It just goes to being to each their own and as long as people are striving for something better and cruelty free then I applaud their efforts.
    meow

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/13/08 09:09:26

    Donald Watson - who co-founded "The Vegan Society" in the UK in 1944.

    Quote from the interview for "Vegetarians in Paradise" when Donald was 93 years old.

    "Inspired people can do much individually, but can do more with like-minded people. So I gathered a few such people together whom I knew would not waste time arguing for the sake of it. I know as a propagandist that many people do not argue to reach right conclusions but to defend their interests and religious shibboleths. We did not need a committee of such people. Of course, we did not always agree on everything. We argued for a long time about whether members should sign a pledge, before deciding against it. We also debated for a long time about the case of honey but again decided against it."
    .
    Full interview here - http://www.vegparadise.com/24carrot610.html

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/13/08 09:33:56

    "arguing for the sake of it" is indeed a big waste of time.

    It would be wonderful if neurotic / tripped out / psychotic etc. individuals would "get some help" for their conditions - "off-site".

    Would anyone object if I added a post here about specific "non-lethal" vegan cereals?




  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 08/13/08 15:35:21

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis

    The term in drama refers to a sudden emotional climax that evokes overwhelming feelings of great sorrow, pity, laughter or any other extreme change in emotion, resulting in restoration, renewal and revitalization in members of the audience.

  • Report Abuse

    Posted by emilyplay at 08/13/08 16:13:34

    WOW

    I just read all of this.

    Some great points.

    There is no way that my 2 old cats would survive on only vegan food.

    Donald Watson is one of my hero's.


  • Report Abuse

    Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/13/08 06:40:16


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