Lift the Subway ban?

Question

Subway Switzerland has introduced  the "Spicy Vegan Patty" and "Vegan garlic aioli" sauce. But when trying to add an outlet get the following message:

"Due the long history of cruelty and exploitation of animals by this chain, HappyCow is unwilling to list them. If they make an effort to veganize their menu minimally 50%, separate their cooking space, and label options we will reconsider."

I do understand the reasoning. However I think this sets the bar too high: Many restaurants and sandwich places are listed without meeting those conditions. And Subway now fulfills them better than many:

- Two out of ten sandwiches are vegan (spicy vegan, veggie delite)
- Fresh gloves are used when creating vegan sandwiches
- Labeling is present, though quite incomplete.

I know nothing about any animal cruelty past of Subway (are they worse than your typical supermarket?), but if we still boycott them now that they're improving, isn't there a danger they will slide back and remove the vegan option? And isn't there a danger that people in areas where Subway is almost the only option, like Switzerland's thirteenth-biggest city La Chaux-de-Fonds, will slide back into meat eating? I think seeing the word vegan in such a big chain you legitimize veganism to many.

Opinions?

BreakfastKlutz · Answer

There is no danger of Subway sliding backwards, they will go where the money is.
Subway is already well supported by the vegan community, even in countries where their lack of effort and even lack of knowledge of their own ingredients is basically astounding ie: Australia (where I am). They also have a very inconsiderate layout and poor handling techniques here, to the point that cross-contamination is basically guaranteed.
It is of course a good thing if Subway are actually making an effort in Switzerland, hopefully they continue to improve there and start to improve elsewhere. As far as chains are concerned though, shouldn't they have been leading the way?

HC-Zurich · Answer

This may all be true but are vegans served by not learning about the Subway outlet nearby where they can get a vegan sandwich? They can still decide against it. And of course Subway goes where the money is, so by promoting them on Happycow they get more money for vegan sandwiches and are more likely to keep them in the selection or even add more.

BreakfastKlutz · Answer

The same could be said for Mcdonalds if they decided to have 2 vegan items.
I guess the question is where is the line drawn and if there is no line, what separates Happycow from other directories?

BreakfastKlutz · Answer

I imagine there would be the possibility of regional allowances for such companies if they are clearly making an effort in certain countries

HC-Zurich · Answer

IMHO the mission of HappyCow should be to promote veganism. Will boycotting Subway now that they have a decent vegan selection help that cause? I don't think so. It also hurts existing vegans who in many areas still can't find anything.

BreakfastKlutz · Answer

I believe (at least a part of) the mission of Happycow is to promote veganism. Veganism is not consumerism.

Last time I went to a Subway (5 or so years ago now), 4 different people made my sandwich, and even though they were standing next to each other, I had to ask every single one of them to change their gloves, one after the other and I avoided certain ingredients due to them having dairy in them due to a sloppy layout and poor handling practices.
I would like to think that if Subway truly becomes legitimate then Happycow will list them.

HC-Zurich · Answer

People are different. I don't care about kitchen separation at all since it saves zero animal lives, so, again, I think Subway should be listed and the decision to use it should be up to the HappyCow user. Besides I'm quite sure that most of the non-chain mixed restaurants on HappyCow don't do kitchen separation at all so why hold Subway to a higher standard?

eric · Answer

Hi HC-Zurich, we have given this much thought and aren't yet ready to list Subways in total. Some have been allowed on the site already, but just 30 to date. 
In the past they launched 5 vegan subs (USA) of which all were terrible and within a year they removed them. We're waiting to see how these new options do and if they are well received. If they keep them and add additional options we'd the be more open to adding them, but probably only in locations where not much else exists nearby. That requires a lot more work on our end, and it will happen slowly rather than all locations at once.
Have you tried the Subway option yet? If so, how was it?

HC-Zurich · Answer

The quality of the spicy vegan patty wasn't earth-shattering but it does add bulk to a sandwich with 20 grams of protein and almost 400 calories for a 6 incher. I liked it but I'm not super discerning (wasn't spicy hot at all though). I expect it to remain on the menu since it isn't an addition but it replaced the vegetarian patty.

As for adding venues: How about a compromise where Subway doesn't get listed in cities with decent alternatives (meaning more than three other restaurants) but can be added if it's almost the only option in a town?

eric · Answer

Hi HC-Zurich, we currently have a queue of over 400 places waiting to be added. If you have time to help with subway, please let me know via a private message and maybe we can start some once the queue is under control. Thanks!

AndyT · Answer

I would rather be against it, as it is super easy to find Subway, McDonalds or Burger King outlets. They are available easily in Google Maps, so any vegan who does not find anything in HappyCow can just search for them... Would now want those to clutter up the list of vegan-friendly places.

Mountainmystic · Answer

I agree with the points and opinions made by verbosity and AndyT. And I want to add to those.  If Happy Cow is going to start listing all corporate fast food and other chain restaurants just because they have a few vegetarian or vegan items, where does it end? For me, Happy Cow becomes a sellout to big business like many others who have gone that route to become bigger and make more money. Sacrificing ethics and animals for a profit. And one day, a huge corporation will take over the site, and commercialize it and make it Mega Happy Cow. 

One of the reasons I was originally attracted to the Happy Cow website was that I can find small businesses and restaurants that are offering vegan food and really trying to cater to vegans and vegetarians. And I like food that tastes a little different each day, not like it came out of a food replicator. And if Mega Happy Cow website becomes a reality, it will be the final replication, not resembling something that once was great.

eric · Answer

Hi Mountainmystic & AndyT, agreed. In order to start listing things like that it would need to be an extra option, not a default. We've been looking at how to improve the filters section and make it easy to use and not cluttered. Many users aren't even aware that there exists a "Chain" Filter... it's under the toggle for Veg-Options. If you have ideas feel free to share.

HC-Zurich · Answer

@Mountainmystic, you seem to have the luxury to be able to choose. But in Switzerland there are many towns with ZERO restaurants that have vegan options, e.g. Wohlen with 16k inhabitants. Why not apply the *exact* *same* criteria to chains as to all other restaurants so they can be listed in those cities? There are no small businesses to be found in Wohlen - I checked - so you're hurting vegans there by forbidding to list the only vegan option. And, again, users can choose to ignore chains.

HC-Zurich · Answer

@AndyT installing and starting an extra app for each chain is is way, way slower than seeing the outlets where you are already. Besides, how would people know that Subway has started offering vegan sandwiches? I can accept than in cities with many vegan options such outlets could be considered clutter, but in an *empty* list of vegan options the Subway outlet is definitely no clutter. Therefore I still vote for listing them where there's few or no other options.

eric · Answer

HI HC-Zurich, noticed this announcement today: "As of September 5th, the Beyond Meatball Marinara sub has been available for a limited time only in more than 600 select locations in the U.S. Participating restaurant locations include Jackson, Mississippi; South Bend-Elkhart, Indiana; Fresno-Visalia, California; Louisville, Kentucky; and Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. "
It's exactly what I was mentioning as a reason not to list Subway. It's a trial and not at every location. Quite likely they will not have this option very long.

KRobSto · Answer

Though I really can understand the different perspectives, issues, reasoning, conflicts, etc of all sides of this question... Nah I do support the boycott... I've always thought "the bar" should be set high when it comes to veganism but, in my opinion, it'd have to be lowered way too far to allow Subway... It's difficult and a shame because I know there are some terrific franchise owners but, unfortunately, they're still part of the corporation... Besides, any veg(etari)an that is okay with Subway surely already knows their options and will have no trouble finding a location... I appreciate and respect HappyCow for not bending so far and easily

DamianArgent · Answer

I second that. Subway tries to promote the light and healthy style of take out - you'd think they'd have more to offer us. And what was offered would be super yummy, but it's not. I heard even the cheese contains animal rennet. How hard would it be for them to care a bit more? Easy. About as easy as it is for me to make my own cut roll. I understand HC Zurich saying it's hard to get vego foods where he is, trust me. I had an extremely difficult time in rural Australia trying to get fed while travelling. My dad was angry with me for not getting subway and instead holding the journey up by 10 mins while I got a roll and some greens  and fruit at a supermarket. I didn't care, best highway picnic I ever had! That and a cold beer made the nullabour bearable.

HC-Zurich · Answer

@DamianArgent I'm totally fine with your choice of not using Subway but I don't think it's fair to indirectly force this choice on others. Many vegans in Switzerland don't know Subway now has vegan options and many don't know there an outlet in their area, especially when travelling.

BreakfastKlutz · Answer

StoryKR mentioned how high the bar should be set. I always believed that as more venues were added/became vegan friendly the bar would have to be raised to stop the site becoming flooded with listings. I have added over 1000 listings to happycow and would be happy for the lowest 10% of those listings to be removed simply to 'make room' for better listings when/if the minimum criteria were altered. I have added quite a few smaller chains in Australia & New Zealand where they do not detract from the other listings, but I imagine in more populous regions with larger cities, the larger chains especially could easily make a mess of the site. I have previously reported the chain filter as problematic and it still causes issues with the other filters for me.

eric · Answer

If any specific listings aren't worth keeping anymore please send in an update.  Based on what's new nearby, the location, and reviews we do remove places.

HC-Zurich · Answer

I agree with verbosity, in larger cities with many entries the bar for new entries should be raised, and maybe mediocre old entries could be eliminated. Which is why I only plan to add the mediocre Subway entries in areas where there's hardly anything else.

Synergy · Answer

I'm new today here on this thread.  I hope it stays for vegetarians and vegans, and that the vegans don't guilt trip the vegetarians.

martint · Answer

Hey, I've just tried to add a Subway venue in a town which literally lacks vegan options, so it would be nice to any vegan in the area know about that. But  I was unable to do so. And to be sincere, I do not get it at all. HappyCow is supposed to be an app for the travelers who looks for venues in unknown areas? For me it is obvious that if there is a Subway and another restaurant, almost anyone would go for the restaurant (at least due to the quality). But if not, still it is better to have the Subway options rather than starving? Please reconsider that

Delta12Wellness · Answer

I think it's a smart moove to keep Subway off the list on HappyCow. If we are vegan for health reasons, or vegan to prevent cruelty to animals, why be cruel to the most conscientious of all animals, humans? Subway and the other multi-national fast food chains are not becoming vegan to accomodate our needs, they are doing it to get a bigger piece of the pie. They are using chemical preservatives, proccessed "foods" and GMO ingredients to keep people addicted to it and spending money. In the long run, people who eat the bromated flour in the bread, shelf stablizing preservatives, GMO oils, and pesticide riddled vegetables, are going to become sick. We, as a plant-based community, will ultimately fail in exemplifying the health benefits of our lifestyle. That could deter potential vegans from trying.

HC-Zurich · Answer

@Delta12Wellness Not going to Subway for health reasons is your choice, but why force your choice on everyone else? If a Subway is listed, anyone can still freely choose to not go there for any reason. I for one have no problem with the Subway food quality, I doubt it significantly differs from your average sandwich shop.

JackyDeReviere · Answer

I added a Subway location (Blairgowrie, Scotland) and was also not accepted. It was the first time I visited a Subway, but that afternoon in this city it was the only option where we could eat something vegan (other restaurants with vegan options were closed or full), so I thought it would be useful to try this Subway to add. With six vegan options, vegan cheese, most sauces vegan, I found it useful. That afternoon we found no other option in this city with Happy Cow.

Tiggy · Answer

Why l, as a vegan, would you want to give your money to a business that profits from animal slaughter and abuse. Choosing a plant-based option does not cancel this out and your money ends up sponsoring the animal cruelty industry. HC already has a minimal focus on preventing animal cruelty in its decisions around listings.

@JackyDeReviere @martint - you easily found the places without HC. It’s not like Subways are hard to find.

@Delta12Wellness @HC-Zurich - not listing an eatery on HC is not forcing somebody else’s choice on you. You are still perfectly able to dine at a murder kitchen if you want.

@Synergy - this is a vegan site

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