"Paul the apostate" really messed up seriously!
If anyone has Wales related quotes / snippets please share them with me.
Jesus believed in simple living and nonviolence, and felt that this was part of the law of God. Jesus was undoubtedly vegetarian, since this was the original teaching of Jewish Christianity. Jesus did not bring a new theology, but rather a radical understanding of the law. For Jesus, the law commands nonviolence; we are not to shed blood, whether the blood of humans in warfare or the blood of animals in meat consumption or animal sacrifice. Jesus risked and gave his life to disrupt the wicked and bloody animal sacrifices in the temple. But the religion of Jesus has been lost from modern Christianity.
St. David - a 5th / 6th C Welsh vegan
The Monastic Rule of David prescribed that monks had to pull the plough themselves without draught animals; to drink only water; to eat only bread with salt and herbs; and to spend the evenings in prayer, reading and writing. No personal possessions were allowed: to say "my book" was an offence. He lived a simple life and practiced asceticism, teaching his followers to refrain from eating meat or drinking beer. His symbol, also the symbol of Wales, is the leek.
Posted by Wallydraigle at 09/05/07 15:11:43That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Jesus was a Jew, who were instructed by the Mosaic law (Which Jesus himself wrote, if he is indeed divine) to animal sacrifices.
Furthermore, during the Passover feast, which Jesus would have attended every year, and which there is written record of him attending no fewer than three times, a roasted lamb was prepared. The Law was very specific about this. A lamb [i]had[/i] to be slaughtered, and all present [i]had[/i] to partake of it.
If Jesus was a vegan he wouldn't have put all that stuff about killing and eating animals in the Mosaic Law when he wrote it. This rumor is nothing more than activist drivel aimed at laying a guilt trip on Christians, and doesn't stand up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny.
Posted by TheFleshPrince at 09/05/07 16:26:37There are also two events recorded of Jesus sharing fish and bread with the people that had gathered around him.
Posted by JohnnySensible at 09/05/07 22:22:40Nazarenes were not meat munchers - unless of course you "need" to believe otherwise. Jesus was a wonderful maverick - he never once exhibited "herd" mentality. Being part of the "herd" ain't for me either! I will stick with reading scholarly translations of the original Aramaic / ancient Hebrew copies of the Biblical books with no redneck / Southern Baptist / Church of Rome etc. influence. The part about Jesus "writing" the Mosaic Law is so "way out there" that only the writer can work through it. I like Star Trek but but I do not "believe" it.
Posted by martin at 10/29/07 12:25:42Jesus was arebel who sought every opportunity to strike down the empty religous rituals of his day as perpetrated by the Pharisees. There's a great messahe at www.hopelc.ca Click on " sermon' and chose the October 28 message.
Posted by JohnnySensible at 10/29/07 23:10:29Thank you for sharing this Martin - I just read & really appreciated the sermon - here is an easy link to it -
Martin Luther has some bizarre ideas - however he was brave enough to "take on" Roman Catholicism & for this he has my strong respect!
"Why does not the pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build the basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with the money of poor believers?" - Martin Luther writing about the murderous / poisoner Pope Leo X whose opponents regularly died from "food poisoning".
Posted by vesalius123 at 11/08/07 09:14:14Have you seen the quotes that your link refferences? all they say is that humans are better then animals. not to mention the fact that a large part of the bible is made up to convince people that they are superior to animals and thus have the right to eat them as the humans were made in gods image and animals were not. ever since people began reading the bible it has been used as a sick justification for the dominance of men over women and humans over animals.
Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/14/07 07:25:45vesalius123 I cannot see the quotes which you are referring to.
The sermon linked to focuses on sycophancy / "people pleasing".
The Bible - perhaps you will find a better translation one day - in a plain translation from the "Aramaic" Jesus neither abused women nor animals.
Posted by vesalius123 at 11/14/07 17:13:02it is your compassionate spirit link which makes referance to several biblical passages which are based on the idea that humans are better then animals. no jesus himself may not have abused women and animals but the faith he was a part of held those beliefs.
Posted by roar at 11/14/07 22:31:07Hmmm...
here's my two cents...
I'm not christian...
Not even religious in the least at all whatsoever...
But it is interesting and would make sense since christianity is about the most corrupt religion out there that this jesus dude would be vegan and yet his followers to this day feast on things like pig on what they claim to be his birthday and pretend to drink his blood through wine for the day of his death and then wear a cross to signify their faith in him.
Which brings me to my take on the cross....
First of all, history knows it wouldn't have been a cross... that symbol was stolen..
And even if he died on a cross....
If I were in a bank, and a guy came in with a machine gone, was going to feed his greed with every amount of money in the bank, and none of us were going to be left alive, and another guy came in, somehow managed to get us all outside safe and sound, and yet befor he could get away was blasted with the machine gun and killed, would I buy a tiny gold replica of the gun that killed the man that saved my life?
NO... that is just plain gross and wrong to me.
Which is why if I were christian and bought the cross ideah, I would NOT wear one.
That is just gross....
my two cents...
Posted by JohnnySensible at 11/15/07 04:44:58roar - about the cross / macabre "dead guru worship" I could not agree with you more.
Monty Python's "Life of Brain" puts it all nicely into perspective.
Terry Jones quote - "Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly".
There are quite a few Christians who are not twisted meat munchers!
Posted by SynthVegan at 11/15/07 15:35:28Hello, I'm Vegan and Atheist. Although I respect your opinions, I would like to mention something regarding religion.
As Richard Dawkins [atheist] has been known to have said, we are all atheist towards most of the worlds religions, some of us just go one god further.
Obviously I'm one who has gone one god further. This is our only life, why waste it on hopes of a "new" and "better" one "beyond" and/or in "heaven"? When coming to this conclusion, you're free to live your life for what it is, your only one. So make it count, appreciate all life, because it's precious. For every animal, this is also their only life; they shouldn't have to go through what they do.
We are all lucky because we were born; there are countless individuals who will never be born [chance/randomness/etc.]. Life [humans, animals, etc.] is precious, make it count now.
As far as any arguments regarding my stance, if, and may I reiterate IF; If there is a "god" and Atheists are wrong [which I doubt they are], don't you think that if there is an all-loving and compassionate "god", he would accept an individual that he himself created to think rationally and to question matters? I think so, otherwise, why would this "god" create a being with such a complex human mind?
Life is precious, make it count today…make an impact on others…live compassionately.
Posted by Rafael at 11/17/07 03:26:55I really love the line above -
"We are all lucky because we were born; there are countless individuals who will never be born".
- it reminds me of Marc Bolan lyrics!
synthebm - you have made me smile - have a great weekend & enjoy your "created by chance" veggies!
Posted by SynthVegan at 11/20/07 15:45:57As I went into my religion tangent, I forgot to relay my whole point…LOL! The point I was getting at is regardless of which religion you choose [or lack thereof], we should appreciate all life and live compassionately. Personally, I don't care what historic "figure" did what, I care that I'm living a Vegan lifestyle and relaying that message upon others, thus, saving more lives. I don't let religion(s) dictate my future decisions.
Rafael: You've made me smile as well with your comment. I sure did enjoy my "created by chance" veggies this past weekend! Have a good Thanksgiving and enjoy your Tofurkey [or whatever substitution you may choose].
Posted by Gorgeous at 11/21/07 04:03:34Powerful old veg*ns!
One compassionate fellow wandering barefoot in Palestine 2000 years ago can still generate strong debate today!
There is a tiny chance that more of his misguided "followers" may gradually wake up to the fact that he was not about big buildings / embroidered cassocks / investments in animal abuse / "religious killing".
I often remind my "Christian" friends that Jesus gave away his possessions to the poor & preached compassion to all creatures.
Posted by Stig at 11/21/07 05:08:56Jews ban beef to save the world?
MEGAN JACOBS , THE JERUSALEM POST Nov. 18, 2007
Most Jews are not vegetarians, but some may consider a dietary shift after seeing A Sacred Duty: Applying Jewish Values to Help Heal the World. Sponsored by Jewish Vegetarians of North America (JVNA), the documentary (which premiered at the Orthodox Union's Israel Center in Jerusalem last week) tackles three major themes: the current peril of global warming and other environmental threats; teachings in Judaism that may guide our response to these threats; and how a shift toward vegetarianism can both alleviate environmental problems and help us fulfill our Jewish duty.
"I hope to awaken the world to the fact that we are headed toward an unprecedented global catastrophe," Dr. Richard Schwartz, the film's producer and president of JVNA, told The Jerusalem Post prior to film's premiere. "A shift toward plant-based diets is essential to address global warming and tikkun olam (healing the world)."
The first part of the film presents global environmental concerns specifically as they affect Israel. Air and water pollution are two of Israel's biggest ecological issues and Israeli environmentalists worry not only about the health effects of these problems, but also about the lack of government concern.
"Everyone is so obsessed with national security that the environment gets tossed aside," said Yair Cohen, a leader of Green Course, an Israeli student environmental group that appears in the film.
Leading Israeli environmentalist and founder of the Israel Union for Environmental Defense, Professor Alon Tal (also featured in the documentary), called the film "a curious juxtaposition." Aside from showing natural images, such as the polluted Yarkon River, A Sacred Duty presents a series of video clips portraying cruelty to farm animals. It ends on a positive note, however - that we can, in fact, reverse this catastrophic trend - complete with classic "clean earth" scenes of foliage, water sports on Israeli beaches and setting suns.
FOR SCHWARTZ and his supporters, one lifestyle change in particular can have far reaching effects: a shift to plant-based diets. Driven by a 2006 United Nations report which showed that 18% of greenhouse gases come from livestock agriculture, Schwartz concluded that a vegetarian and vegan lifestyle was the answer to staying healthier and healing the planet.
For the Jewish community, this dietary decision has particular significance. Eating an animal-based diet is "no doubt damaging the world and is in violation of the Jewish mandate to protect and care for the earth," said Jerusalem rabbi Adam Frank in the documentary. Schwartz agrees. He even takes it further, insisting that meat-eating is actually in violation of Jewish law, which requires us to "take care of the body, show compassion to animals, conserve resources, help hungry people, and seek and pursue peace."
It taps on environmentalists and rabbinical leaders from multiple strands of Judaism to embrace this cause and preach it. Rabbi Sha'ar Yashuv Cohen, Ashkenazic chief rabbi of Haifa, credits his 80 years of good health to vegetarianism. Rabbi David Rosen, former chief rabbi of Ireland and international director of religious affairs for the American Jewish Committee, calls leading a vegetarian lifestyle one of "the most sublime and noble values."
For Rosen, health and religion are inextricably linked.
"I am vegetarian because I am a religious Jew," Rosen said. "Just because you have been given permission [to eat meat] does not make it ideal. Today's reality should lead any honest religious Jew to see that vegetarianism is a religious imperative."
As much as Schwartz tries to maintain that his documentary is "just trying to start a respectful dialogue" within the Jewish community and "fulfill a mandate of awareness," one cannot help but see the interviewees' hope of influencing the rabbinate with regard to changing the laws of kashrut. Several figures in the film also claim that the current halachic standards of kashrut are not consistent with Judaism's approach to animals.
"Even kosher is cruel," said Roberta Kalechofsky, founder and director of Jews for Animal Rights. She cites violations by two kosher slaughterhouses in Nebraska and Iowa in addition to the farms that do abide by current standards, but still do not minimize pain as much as they could.
Still, while others like Prof. Tal may not discuss the violations of kashrut in the film, it is clear that it is a belief that motivated them to contribute to the project. "It is unthinkable that kashrut would cause more pain," explained Tal. "It should be the safest, cleanest, and most humane way [to slaughter]. Halacha is an evolving issue that should change with technology. We need to be creative and courageous in this."
Schwartz has plans to mass distribute the documentary through screenings in Israel and in the United States, where free DVDs will be given away. Viewers are encouraged to organize screenings with leaders in their own communities to spread the word.
Posted by mothersson2002 at 12/11/07 17:28:53The 10 commandants stae Thou shalt not kill.It's ironic that the majority of religious fundamentalists follow some commandants to the latter while others are not.
Slavery was suppodely ordained by God. While that belief is no longer socially accepted, other violent acts are such as the physical assault of innocent children and the death of animals for purposes of food are supposedly ordered by God. Though in fact Genesis 1:29 & 30 sates that plants are what people are to eat. And of course Jesus was opposed to violence and many of his actions were contrary to prior supposed teachings that are indicated in the first testiment. More acvocates for children and animals need to expose these false teachings. Jesus stood and stands for love and so those that claim they are doing his work when they inflict violence on innocent beings are in fact doing just the oppisite. Lets expose the truth! It will protect lives!
Posted by distone at 04/12/08 12:20:36johnny sensible,
vesalius123 has a point. all the quotations listed by the website you mentioned earlier highlight human superiority. this is because quotations cannot be taken out of context. instead of reading the one line you have to read the whole sentence. also, i think what vesalius123 meant by 'his religion' was judaism.
Posted by JohnnySensible at 04/12/08 22:39:01I had forgotten about this thread!
I was "playing" with multiple personalities in those days in order to generate some more activity in what was then a "dodo dead"
distone I fully agree with you about quotations / context.
I do remember reading through most of the content on the site in question.
My gripe is animal abuse - not "psychological wholeness" - if an individual is not playing the "animal torture / murder" game but is stuck on the issue of human superiority I keep quiet.
Just keeping myself sane in a mad world takes up most of my energy.
"his religion" - as far as I can tell from the highly censored / garbled books available to us today Mr. Jesus was no "poster boy" for orthodox Judaism.
Posted by Quasi Vegetarian at 08/15/08 18:41:04WOW! I realize I am a wee bit late in this conversation. But being the animal that I am and subject to my natural instincts I just have to add to this and hope others will come back to this thread and continue on with this interesting conversation.
First I will tell you all that I am a deeply spiritual individual. I have a deep abiding faith that has been instilled and groomed and personally proven throughout many of lives abrupt reasons. I will not talk about "denomination" because that is not my point.
It is my firm belief that regardless of your "religion" and I add agnostic and atheist to my list of religions. One can not prove or disprove the existence of "God".
Religion is a faith, or emotional, based belief or truth. And because ones "truth" is based on faith or emotion, it can not be proven. I think it is wise to discuss ones beliefs with others as it allows one to verbalize their own thoughts and see and hear them from another perspective. It also allows one to see and hear others beliefs for the same reasons. But all the preaching and teaching and persuading can not prove your beliefs, their beliefs, that "God" does or dose not exists. It can only raise one's awareness of another's and ones own thoughts on the subject. This I believe is good and wise as long at we are willing to respect the others opinions and right to their "Faith".
Now then, I am going to make an exception to my statement that one can neither prove or disprove that God and their faith is real or that it is true. It can be proven beyond a doubt. But only to ones self, by ones self. In other words no one can prove their "Faith" or "God" to me. However if they are respectful of me and my faith system and they approach me with acceptance rather that reproche they may be able to get me to actually hear what it is they want me to hear. And if I hear what they want me to hear, and I take it to heart, I may just "feel" what it is they have "felt" and there by prove to myself that their teaching are real and true.
I do hope this is being received in the spirit it is being presented. With no animosity and or ill will to anyone.
That being said, I am now going to cross into waters a wee deeper. Please remember this is my faith now I am talking about. My belief system that I accept to be true. I can no more prove to anyone that what I am about to say is true, than anyone else can disprove it is true.
I have crossed what I call "The Vale" more times than anyone I have ever known. I am saying that I have died and have seen the continuance of this life several times. The first time I died I was 5 years old. I did not have the deep understanding at that young age of what had happened. ( Later on I began to gain understanding ) I was thrown off a piece of machinery ( a tin brake ) and landed on my head with extreme force on a concrete floor. ( much like spiking a volleyball ) As I watched my brother, 3 years older than myself, run to find my father and get help, I was wondering why he was upset. It took a few moments for me to realize that I was seeing my brother run to find my father from outside my body. When he found my father, I was standing by father in another part of the building watching my brother run toward us and trying to tell my father just what had happened. When my father realized what my brother was telling him he rushed to my side. I was immediately back standing beside my body watching my father and brother rush to where my body lie. I saw my father knell by my side. Check for signs of life and I do remember the anguish on his face when he realized that his youngest child was indeed dead. I watched this happen just a sure as I am writing this now and you are reading it. I watched it all from outside my body. I was looking at my father my brother and myself. At that point I heard a voice call me by name and tell me that my time to leave was not yet. That I should rejoin my family. That I had much yet to do here in and that I would be called again, several times. But I was not to worry as it would be made known to me well in advance when my final time would come. I felt a wee twinge of pain, and deep breath as if someone had blown air into my lungs and I opened my eyes to the amazement of my father. My father held me tightly and I heard him offer a wee small and powerful prayer of thanks to God. ( it is good to realize that my father was an animal doctor. And his medical skills were often used with human animals as well. He had no doubt that I was dead. He knew how to check for heart beat and pulse. He knew how to look for signs of respiration. He knew what dead looked like and I was most certainly dead.
The next time I died I was 8 years old. I drowned. I was underwater for apx 15 to 20 minutes. This was in a heated swimming pool. So cold water had no effect. To make a long story short, I watched the life guards and rescue people perform chest pressure arm lift, mouth to mouth, and CPR. I watched it from outside of my body. I watched them pronounce me dead. My oldest brother, 11 years older than I, was with me this time. He was a member of the high school swimming team. I was their "mascot". That is why I was there. I remember the look on my brothers face. Again I was told this was not my time. I should rejoin my family. I was given a wee more information this time. I will not go into that as it is highly personal. Again I felt a wee of pain, I opened my eyes to see the water pouring out of my mouth and feel the burning as it left my lungs. I saw the look on the faces of those around me. The medical people said I was very luck. Little did they know, luck had nothing to do with it.
This is an almost common occurrence in my life now. ( I am in my mid early/mid 50's ) Before I went into the U.S. Army it ( something similar ) happened several more times. My family jokingly referred to me as the cat boy referring to the idea of nine lives. I served as I said in the U.S. Army, in the Special Forces. ( The Green Berets ) I served in the SOG units. ( Black Ops ) My reputation with my mates there was a wee spooky. They saw me survive things that should not have been survivable. ( they did not no that I did not survive. I died. But was ushered back again to this mortal. I was never afraid as I was promised that I would be forewarned of the day I would leave this life and I would be prepared. I had then and I have now no fear at all of death. I can not say at that I am all that pleased with the pain that can come with recovery at times, but as to death, I have no fear. I do not believe I will see my mother and father again, I know I will. It is as much a fact to me as I am writing this message to deliver to you here in this post.
Some will say that I am crazy. Some will call me liar. Others will say that maybe I was confused. And then some will hear with something deeper than ears and eyes, as is the case of this is written word. Some will hear with what I call, by the spirit. It makes no difference what "Faith" or Denomination one professes to believe in. Because the spirit does not worry about such pettiness. It goes beyond that.
There is no way to prove or disprove what I have said here. And I will not try to prove it to anyone. I will simply put it out there and you may do with it as you may. I respect that. I respect your right to your opinion. That being said I know what has happened to me. And I would not nor could I ever deny what I have seen or experienced. As it has been proven true to me.
This may be a wee deep for this forum. As I see it this is a forum about faith. Well faith is where you find it. It is a deep as you are willing to let it be in your life. It does not know Christian, Jews, Islam, Atheist. Omnianism, Djelibeybian, Voodoo. It knows only what is in ones heart..... And listens for that heart to be receptive...... And delivers a message that can only be proven by the one receiving it.
People will do what they will with the "Teachings" of religion. They are only human and as such are subject to their society and culture. It is up to the individual to listen and discern what is true and what is not. Know one can either prove or disprove the knowledge of your heart. No one that is but you.
I have seen what I have seen, and I know what I know. As for me, that is the long and short of it.
Thank you for hearing me out.
Posted by meenakshiamman at 02/19/09 01:11:29WOW has this topic has been inactive. I hope it is ok for me to post here.
First off, as someone who was raised a christian I know that most of our modern views of christianity have been very heavily filtered from their actual source.
While the Bible very clearly indicates and even at times promotes violence towards animals it also at times promotes non-violence.
For starters Adam and Eve were vegetarians.
In Genesis it says "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."
So for believers in Christianity, our bodies were originally meant for a vegetarian diet.
In Isaiah it says : "The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither hunt nor destroy on all my holy mountain, Says the Lord."
Showing what a perfect world would be like in Heaven.
A common trait amongst modern day Christians is their idea that animals have no souls. To this I say:
In the book of Numbers there is a story about a man named Balaam, whom after angering God is taught a lesson. God sends an angel to kill Balaam after he sets out on a trip on his donkey.
The donkey sees the angel and Balaam does not (showing spiritual perception on the donkey's part) and as per his duty steers clear of the angel that is directly in their path.
Each time Balaam whips the donkey, until finally the angel makes it so that the donkey cannot move at all and he lays down.
Balaam continues to whip the donkey until:
"Then the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?” And Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have abused me. I wish there were a sword in my hand, for now I would kill you!” So the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden, ever since I became yours, to this day? Was I ever disposed to do this to you?” And he said, “No.”"
The Lord "opened" the mouth of the donkey...This implies that He did not speak for the donkey but allowed the donkey to express his/her thoughts and emotions. It also shows that he/she felt pain.
The angel then goes on to ask why Balaam would hit his donkey stating that the donkey had protected Balaam's life.
As a side note I would also like to add a quote from Romans:
"It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak."
Last but not least there is a camp that believe that Jesus was associated with the Essenes (who were vegetarians).
In the Essene Gospel of Peace, Jesus is credited with saying: "For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and whoso eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats of the body of death. For in his blood every drop of their blood turns to poison; in his breath their breath to stink; in his flesh their flesh to boils; in his bones their bones to chalk; in his bowels their bowels t o decay; in his eyes their eyes to scales; in his ears their ears to waxy issue. And their death will become his death" amongst many other endorsements for vegetarianism.
Sorry for such a long post, but I had a lot to say!
To read more on the Essene Gospel of Peace look here: www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/