"Vegetarians" and animal rights
Posted by seanf399 at 07/07/2009
I wondering if Vegetarians actually decided to go vegetarian for animal rights, because dairy and eggs still contribute to the enslavement and exploitation of animals. Before I went Vegan I was vegetarian more for the environments reasons than any other, but I have recently come across some REALLY obnoxious vegetarians at my high school who feel exceptionally morally superior because THEY have discovered meat is murder. I want to tell them that dairy is rape but whenever I do that it's never ended well.....
So have any vegetarians made the switch for animal rights and felt that it was enough?
Veggie_noob at 07/14/2009 15:17:13
Kittie at 07/27/2009 05:12:51
shearwater at 07/31/2009 14:38:32
happykat27 at 08/17/2009 13:12:42
starrynight at 09/01/2009 02:32:56
starrynight at 09/01/2009 02:33:56
Sonja and Dirk at 09/01/2009 15:33:52
In regards to other posts, people like to justify that it's not as bad since it's not flesh, but it's worse as the animals not only end up slaughtered anyways, but they suffered even longer along the way. For the person above who gets eggs from the farmer, let's assume that the chickens are treated humanely (doubtful, but let's go with it), what does the farmer do with the unwanted male chicks? Perhaps you are the one who should do some research. Here's some places to start:
shearwater at 09/01/2009 16:03:26
starrynight at 09/01/2009 21:12:18
It seems like you guys are the ones who have stopped learning.
All chickens are not treated cruelly.
We have local coups owned by people who love fresh eggs. The chickens don't end up being slaughtered! they are kept more as pets.
Eggs are great and healthy. Good source of b12s and it doesn't hurt the chicken IF they are well taken care of.
To say eating eggs is always cruel is ignorant and makes no sense.
starrynight at 09/01/2009 23:26:44
I invite you to come out to the midwest sometime and see some coops and learn about the chickens! Lol!
It isn't uncommon here for corn/soybean farmers to have their own coops. A lot of locals have coops just outside their house. Those with apple orchards have coops and birds as well. Along with pygmy goats, etc.
It's like having a pet parakeet and it lays and egg except you eat it. It doesn't hurt the bird.
No doubt factory eggs are cruel but come out to people who own coops. Get your own primary research... field research.
and not only are local chickens not treated cruelly the eggs taste sooo much better.
Now if you are against owning pets that is a whole different story and I understand where you are coming from... but to say it is cruel and *crueler* than slaughtering an animal? Laughable!
Sonja and Dirk at 09/02/2009 10:24:46
I don't want to fight since this is supposed to be a website where vegans can share and feel safe, but you cannot project your little part of the world on the rest. Just because a few chickens you know are fine does not change the fact that most are not. Encouraging demand for eggs will only lead to the abuses that currently exist. Egg laying hens in factory farms live much worse lives than broiler chickens. Please read some information on factory farms before saying it's "laughable". I don't think it's laughable at all.
Steffi Giraffe at 09/02/2009 12:28:59
Before I became vegan I tried going vegetarian but only eating eggs I knew were free range (I never liked eating actual eggs but liked cakes etc. - which I now know can be vegan and just as delicious). Then it finally dawned on me that farmers aren't interested in keeping chickens until they die naturally of old age, or keeping roosters (which are a nightmare - unfortunately there is no use for the majority of them and no one wants them as pets so they are killed).
I personally don't feel comfortable with supporting exploitation and killing of animals, so I felt I had to go vegan. It's not as extreme or difficult as I thought it would be. It doesn't make sense to me why people are vegetarian because of the cruelty, but won't go vegan when the facts are laid out in front of them. I understand it if they are vegetarian because they don't want to eat flesh.
Sonja and Dirk at 09/02/2009 12:51:16
starrynight at 09/02/2009 14:28:58
Now, it looks like people missed the point, so here it is in simplistic terms.
1. A label is not determinate of the extent of cruelty someone supports: You can have your own cow and drink milk, you can be a 4-h shower and eat your own hen's eggs, you could have your own coop - even with roosters if you want! (if you separate them), you can be a meat eater and eat road kill or things that are already dead from natural cause. (creepy yes, cruel no.)
2. Vegans are not superior to any group because they still engage in cruelty towards animals: This post was complaining about vegetarians who think they are better than meat eaters when supposedly they weren't doing anything overly spectacular for animal rights. Vegans were thought to be the only ones who are against all animal cruelty. However, vegans may think they are "right" and more "ethical" because they are less cruel towards animals... except... unfortunately, vegans still aren't cruelty free either.
First of all I'm assuming most vegans don't brush the ground to check for insects before they walk. They probably would use flea treatments on their dog or cat, kill ants, lice, fleas, or cockroaches in an infestation... and they probably drive cars or use transportation at some point of their life that kills hundreds of insects. Eating processed food also contributes to insect death.
Sonja and dirk mentioned that the farmers might get the chickens from a cruel place. (Which isn't necessarily always true - but assuming it was) Vegans at some point, will probably shop at a place that sells some sort of animal product that people were cruel to - thereby supporting a store that buys animal product. Gas station, grocery store, etc
3. Be helpful, not arrogant: Saying vegetarians need to do their research is inaccurate and divisive. Instead of picking on a group of people (which vegans have no right to because they aren't cruelty free nor do they know if the vegetarian gets their resources from cruel sources - both discussed above.) why not bring up the *issues* of animal rights in egg laying and milk producing instead of chastising a group and saying they aren't doing enough ethically for animals.
Also - I understand the original post. It was a high school kid ranting. It wasn't really meant seriously or to be taken as a logical argument.
The other posters are the ones who should have thought first.
We should ALL be trying to help animals not dividing the community.
starrynight at 09/02/2009 14:32:46
I specifically said in an above post: "No doubt factory eggs are cruel."
Sonja and Dirk at 09/02/2009 15:47:03
BTW, this is Sonja. Dirk, while vegan as well, doesn't know I'm even posting! And I've never been on Happy Cow as often as I have been now!
starrynight at 09/02/2009 16:18:24
"But at the same time, not pointing things out only leads the average mainstream person to think that the "humane" stuff they bought at the store is good."
"While I can't be 100% vegan, I can be the most I can be. For the average vegetarian, dropping dairy and eggs is a big improvement. It's not bone char level. I never wanted to come off as attacking anyone and I think we probably both felt we were accused, but most of us vegans are going to post with the big picture in mind, not the 1% that are treated somewhat humanely."
I agree we should try to be as vegan as we can be in the sense we shouldn't be hurting any animals and avoiding purchasing from those who torture animals and support it. But telling vegetarians to "do their research" (kitties post) and they aren't very ethical when it comes to animals is what I had the problem with.
No none of us animal rights activist(including vegans) are 100% but I'm sure everyone is trying to get better each day. For me to make a post that vegans are hypocrites and still kill animals isn't constructive.
To make a post vegetarians are hypocrites isn't constructive either.
What is constructive is maybe posting articles about factory farming an better sources to find food at as opposed to chastising a group... however I do understand because the person is apparently in highschool and "ranting."
I think all veggies should be uniting in support of animal rights and try the best we can. Posts like this can be divisive - although not intended to be.
shearwater at 09/02/2009 16:47:01
For this reason people who truly care about hens, like sanctuary workers, feed any eggs laid back to the hens to help restore these nutrients and to help keep them happy, healthy, and living long.
Most small "humane" egg farms buy their hens from hatcheries where half of all the chicks (males) are killed. Buying the hens supports this killing. As egg production declines, usually around 1 to 2 years old, most free range farmers slaughter the hens rather than continuing to care for and feed unproductive chickens till they die of old age. (A normal lifespan is 15 years.)
Since we are now resorting to stereotypes I am not from a city. I live in a very agricultural area. There are cows across the street from me right now. I find country people to be mostly accepting of practices many of us consider animal cruelty. This is of course a generality. But I don't like my opinions dismissed by saying I must be from a city. I also continue to learn, which is why long ago I evolved from vegetarian to vegan.
Sonja and Dirk at 09/02/2009 17:46:58
starrynight at 09/03/2009 02:07:45
Vegans aren't "further" down the path because we all can't take a checklist and describe what we do for animals everyday.
Labels are not indicative of the level of cruelty as I stated before.
shearwater - read back on the posts because you are coming late to what has been posted.
shearwater at 09/03/2009 09:48:00
Sonja and Dirk at 09/03/2009 12:41:12
starrynight at 09/03/2009 20:01:41
Vegans are not further down the path. (As a label)
Do you drive a car? Take public transportation? Kill thousands of bugs everyday?
Do you travel for your own pleasure at the costs of thousands of insects lives?
Is the place you are living in and your furniture from the wood of cleared forests that wreak havoc upon animals habitats?
Do you help out with shelters?
How do you know you aren't killing thousands of more insects than vegetarians?
And this again comes back to my point.
Veganism is just a label and not determinate to the extent of cruelty.
It does not mean you are less cruel to animals. Especially if you own a car and drive it and take public transportation for selfish needs.
kindlizard at 09/04/2009 08:43:29
by saying forest devastation and that no one lives w/o environmental impact is a poor excuse for torturing blatantly and on purpose the animals you can have a positive impact. Bc the forest suffer it means you should also burden animals closer in proximity to you? why let the spotted owl suffer alone, let's torture some chickens too? your reasoning is lame and selfish. so far your contributions to this site is to eat eggs and energy bars... I hope you can do better... or are you trying to tell others to be as lazy in their efforts as you are? most people on this site are dedicated and it seems in your arguments you are trying to persuade others to your brand of thinking, a thinking that tends to rationalize poorly in order to not give up the things you feel badly about doing... not cool....
starrynight at 09/05/2009 04:38:40
I'm not saying we should engage in more abuse. I'm saying to say vegans are inherently less cruel than vegetarians is inaccurate. Read the above post.
My suggestion was instead of chastising someone based upon a label bring the issues to light and don't criticize someone with a certain label.
kindlizard at 09/06/2009 23:32:43
You are only trying to somehow justify your own cruelty w bad analogies that go nowhere and misinformed rationalizations. Yet you come to a vegan website to argue about eating eggs. In both the concept itself and your motivations I think this could well sum up my advice: Think about your own actions!!!
starrynight at 09/07/2009 01:43:25
I did not use false logic or poor reasoning. I am correct in my reasoning and statements.
My point was not about eating eggs, rather pointing out a label does not determine the extent of cruelty waged against animals.
I did not say go out and be cruel to people/animals or eat factory farmed eggs. ;)
My advice to you?: Listen.
shearwater at 09/07/2009 08:22:13
starrynight at 09/08/2009 00:47:58
camilla99 at 11/24/2009 07:31:08