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Does logic prevail?

samaiello
Posted by samaiello at 05/13/2014

Please help me with this discussion. I am trying to learn about how a vegan applies logic to their way of life. I am hoping the community will send me some answers with out bitter vitriol. This question is posed with no agenda other than discovery. If vegans are opposed to animal abuse, it would follow logically that they are also opposed to abortion. Is this true? Are vegans also against abortion. If not, please help me understand your logic.
Thanks.

Responses

ahimsa32fa
ahimsa32fa05/13/2014 07:35:21
Vegans are not one homogenous group of people.

I've known thousands, and they don't all hold identical views on many topics. That's OK by me. I would detest a world where everyone thought exactly as I do...in such a world how could I learn anything?

I'm guessing that you may be confusing pro-choice with pro-abortion.

Like most, I do not like abortions, but I believe the final decision is for the woman to make, so I'm ultimately pro-choice.
samaiello
samaiello05/13/2014 08:13:12
ahimsa. Thanks for the response. I understand your point.
ecmasonjr
ecmasonjr05/13/2014 08:36:06
I don't find it that difficult a matter to comprehend:

Vegans should be against the deliberate killing of any animal. Should the latest delicacy of carnivores turn out to be the aborted fetus of a cow, I'd be surprised if any vegans supported it.

One of the things humans are very good at is rationalization when it applies to doing things that they know in their hearts is wrong. That's how carnivores continue to exist off the pain, misery and enslavement of innocent animals with clear consciences, they rationalize it away - you've all heard the arguements a hundred times. You've also heard the abortion arguements a hundred times, it's just cells, it's part of the mother's body and she can do whatever she wants with her body, etc.

Here's the crux of the matter, is veganism about life itself, or merely about our using other life as we see fit without permission from the creatures used? If you can convince yourself that it is the latter, then you can rationalize abortion to yourself. But be very clear, if NASA found so much as one embryo cell on Mars they would shout to the heavens that they had discovered life on mars. Not potential life. Life. One cell.
samaiello
samaiello05/13/2014 10:35:42
Thanks ecmasonjr.
ahimsa32fa
ahimsa32fa05/14/2014 06:17:32
A living cell is not the same as "an animal", - living, conscious sentient being. If I scratch my arm, I'll have living cells under my fingernail. When I wash my hands those cells go somewhere to die. Does that make me a vegan hypocrite?

There's no such thing as a 100% pure vegan in reality. We all kill innocent creatures by accident and cannot totally avoid it. Animals die somewhere in the process of manufacturing pretty much anything in todays' world. If I ride a bus and there are dead bugs on the windshield, am I a hypocrite vegan? Would it make vegan philosophy invalid?

Is a woman killing an "animal" if she chooses not to get pregnant every time she cycles? Aren't her unused eggs dying?

What if we reverse the question? Is someone who is 100% against all abortions a hypocrite if they eat a dead cow or drink a cow's milk?

The abortion/vegan issue was created not by those who care about human fetuses as much as by those who feel threatened by vegans exposing the cruelty of the non-vegan diet and lifestyle.

By the way, "bob veal" (a calf about to be born, or just born) has been a "delicacy" for a long time.

If anti-abortion extremists really cared about all fetal "life" would they eat eggs? What about anti-abortion folks who support war?

That seems far more hypocritical than a vegan who believes in a women's choice in the matter of abortion.
ecmasonjr
ecmasonjr05/14/2014 12:58:42
I had hoped that, just once, a thread could be true to what appears to be the intent of the original poster. In this case one answer per member expressing his or her opinion on the question. As interesting as it would be to debate the issue, I don't believe this is the place, so I will not do so.
TofuMadness
TofuMadness06/21/2014 03:05:48
I am new to this site and did not know we were only allowed one response per thread. I personally believe that discussion or debate often helps to clarify ideas and thoughts presented.

Some people are going to see this as a black and white issue and for others, including myself, it is very complex. Watching the discussion develop helps me better understand others views.

I am not pro-abortion, but I am pro-choice depending on the stage of the fetus and whether it feels pain or suffers and in situations where there is danger to the mother. This may contradict strict Vegan values, but I am also concerned about the actually pain and cruelty an unwanted child suffers after it is born.
Immaterial
Immaterial08/04/2014 18:12:31
This might be a bit late, but:

First I would like to clarify that vegans do not (in my experience) defend life in all its forms. Plants and single celled organisms are also alive, but vegans (as a generality) do not strenuously defend their right to existence.

Although interpretations can vary, one possible definition which could be offered for veganism is that vegans do not believe in exploiting or inflicting pain upon those beings which possess either the capacity for suffering, or a will of their own.

A fetus, in so far as I'm aware, does not meet either of those criteria, at least during the early stages of development.

The value prescribed to a fetus is often seemingly based not upon what it is, but upon what it has the capacity to turn into. That however is (in my view) a distinctly different concept than those central to the heart of veganism.

Abortion is I believe an ethical issue worthy of consideration. But I believe that I would disagree that the pro-life position represents a logical extension of veganism.

AllyG
AllyG08/04/2014 22:16:30
I would have thought that they would go hand in hand - and vegans wouldn't kill any life - whether born or unborn.

Its an interesting question. But, there are no official vegan police (only the unofficial self appointed righteous ones) so it would be what fits with a persons own morals and ethics. As does being vegan or not.
The Hammer
The Hammer08/05/2014 00:07:18
"(only the unofficial self appointed righteous ones)"

It seems that the vegans like you are always fast with the name calling, is that to avoid a healthy discussion where both people mutually come up with arguments?

Should other vegans always please you? Do you take it personal when people have a different opinion and express that in a non personal way with arguments?
The Hammer
The Hammer08/05/2014 00:12:49
vegans pro or against abortion?

Pffff, i just vegan because of animal cruelty. I want to stop massive exploitation in our western modern society from animals. I don't want to explain the whole world with vegan eyes. Veganism is about animals, not about humans, vegansim is a practical lifestyle for not participating in animal cruelty, "practical" as being a keyword.

IF you want logic, my logic is this, as a vegan i want that any living being should be able to live its own life. In that line of logic, a woman should naturally have the right to decide over her own body. It should be her FREE choiche.
ahimsa32fa
ahimsa32fa08/07/2014 05:23:49
Hammer-

The most valuable course I took during my college years was "Logic". It should be taught in grade school.

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